Solomode Quests and Photon Drop Increase

[Aleron Ives]

I don't think Sega would have made PDs as rare as they did if they had any REMOTE IDEA how long it would have taken to legitimately Sphere one item without duping PDs.

Based on Sega's original rates and prices, I think it's clear that the concept of Photon Spheres was created solely as a trading incentive, because it's basically impossible to acquire enough Photon Spheres to max out a single weapon on your own, let alone all of your weapons. The problem is that Sega envisioned an economy of thousands of players, not dozens, and the rates don't work when there are so few people still playing the game. The number of Photon Drops entering the economy is too low, so even with trading, you can't manage to afford Paganini's services.

 

[Ade]

We don't have thousands of players, and never will. The endgame progression, which is 50% dependent on PDs (the other 50% is finding gear worth Sphereing), is abysmally slow right now. I've been on this server for TWO years, and I trade a reasonable amount. I have fully Sphered TWO pieces of gear. Have others done more? Yep. Have they probably spent 20x more time than me trading? Yep. Not everyone has time for that. And it's NOT FUN to play the trading game all damn day. Video games are supposed to be FUN. Remember that, guys?

I really hope this server doesn't kill another good idea because of fear of change. Nobody is going to "finish" the game too quickly. Very few items are even worth Sphereing due to no hit % or wrong %s; the good ones take forever to find. There's no reason that both pieces of the equation (finding the gear and Sphereing it) have to suck.

Having a Vanilla+ server doesn't mean doing everything exactly the way Sega did it. The original game had some serious flaws. Remember when every single Grinder and Material used its own inventory and bank slot? Remember when the Meseta limit was one million? Remember when there was no common bank? Remember when everyone had to run to pick up a rare that dropped? Remember when Pinkal VR Spaceship Ultimate had FOUR enemies that all dropped Storm Wand Indra? Nobody complains about the past changes now because they balance the game better. Increasing the PD rate falls into this same category. It's not like we're going to have quests with 100 of the same enemy in one room...

I put a lot of effort into this game, and I get ticked off when people who barely play complain about changes that barely affect them so that I DON'T GET TO ENJOY THEM. It's like when my whole family wants to have a certain meal for Christmas dinner but because my brother (who barely shows up for any other holidays) complains, we have to eat something else. Don't take away my dinner

Anyone who doesn't play this game for at least a few hours every few weeks or month really should recuse themselves from voting. It would be the right thing to do. (This isn't much to ask. If you average a total of 15 minutes a day even, I'd say go ahead and vote.)

Also, due to the sheer complexity of economics in relation to inflation, deflation, and the health of a general economy, I encourage the staff of the server to do whatever they wish regardless of the vote outcome. It's your server, and this isn't stuff that everyone understands. I'm sorry if this makes me sound like a dick, but it's true. Deciding how to manage the economy of a game is different than deciding which enemy to position where in a quest; it's a nuanced combination of economics, psychology, sociology, and mathematics. Perhaps we shouldn't be asking for general opinions on this matter. (For example, the US Tax Code, imperfections and all, exists for a very specific purpose. Our municipal systems would fail miserably if we allowed non-economists to make decisions on it. Although I do think private sector economists would do a much better job than public ones.)

 

[fishhao]

Calm the fuck down. "Both" is still the highest vote.

Not all people play for the same reason as you and you telling them what to do or that they should vote again so YOU can enjoy the game is pretty selfish as well.

 

[Ade]

Calm the fuck down. "Both" is still the highest vote.

Not all people play for the same reason as you and you telling them what to do or that they should vote again so YOU can enjoy the game is pretty selfish as well.

I think most people play because they like video games. And progression is a normal part of a game. Isn’t that a pretty common reason?

 

[Aleron Ives]

We don't have thousands of players, and never will.

Well, duh? I never suggested otherwise. My point was that on the official servers, which is the environment that Sega designed the game to be played in, there were way more players, and thus way more Photon Drops, so I disagree with your assertion that Sega would have made them easier to find if they had known how hard it would be to buy Photon Spheres on a private server more than a decade after the game came out. The rates were designed for the game in its heyday, not now. I'm not sure why you're so defensive when I'm agreeing with your larger point: the way Sega set up the economic factors in the game doesn't work when the population size is too small.

 

[Ade]

Well, duh? I never suggested otherwise. My point was that on the official servers, which is the environment that Sega designed the game to be played in, there were way more players, and thus way more Photon Drops, so I disagree with your assertion that Sega would have made them easier to find if they had known how hard it would be to buy Photon Spheres on a private server more than a decade after the game came out. The rates were designed for the game in its heyday, not now. I'm not sure why you're so defensive when I'm agreeing with your larger point: the way Sega set up the economic factors in the game doesn't work when the population size is too small.

My apologies. That is a good point you raised. I’m glad you agree with the larger picture.

 

[Cookie]

People non stop complain about a dead economy and lack of pds, yet when a practical solution is proposed, for some reason it is voted against.

For me it's always just people like you or Matt saying there's a lack of PDs. Otherwise I never really hear/read anyone complaining. Sure, there were maybe a handful of players who complained about it in my PSO past, but I never took anyone of them serious. They just complained like "can't buy S-Rank specials cause too broke" and at they same time they were the ones spending PDs on Meseta (too lazy to sell junk armor) or other stuff they didn't really need. Those are basically the same kind of people who will tell you how broke they are in real life and yet for some reason, they always have the newest Smartphone. Even if you set PD droprate to 1/500, people like that will still complain.

A healthy amount of inflation is a good thing. The U.S. economy experiences inflation of approximately 2 to 2.5% per year.

Doubling the PD drop rate is not exactly 2 to 2.5%, right? That's the typical Ephinea rollercoaster balancing, going from one extreme to another. And if it doesn't work out? Well, shit happens, yolo, I did it for the lulz, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, etc.

Right now, on PSO, deflation is causing the game's economy to stagnate, which demotivates players from playing. Increasing the PD supply so that a person could eventually Sphere their own gear, without necessarily having to trade for PDs, will create two positive effects:

1. Motivation to play increases.
2. The increased play along with inflation will naturally stimulate the game's economy. (Which further increases motivation to play...)

See where this goes? It's clearly the best route.

Shit, it's almost too easy!

The overall progression of this server has been much slower than pre-wipe Schtserv because this is the first PSO economy in which 99.9% of the PDs aren't duped. I don't think Sega would have made PDs as rare as they did if they had any REMOTE IDEA how long it would have taken to legitimately Sphere one item without duping PDs. The grind is beyond insane.

Aaaaaaand here comes the "Sega were just a bunch of idiots who didn't know what they were doing."-attitude again. Was already waiting for that one.

Not to mention that, if the current practice of Sphereing requires massive trading, it means that a lot of PDs will have to be taken out of the hands of others so that only the absolutely most dedicated players can Sphere anything. I don't think this exclusionary mechanic was intended.

I think it was, cause PSO is already easy enough.

How about we get a direct deposit of 10pds a week right into our shared bank.

Can't do that because people would create multiple accounts.

The problem is that Sega envisioned an economy of thousands of players, not dozens, and the rates don't work when there are so few people still playing the game.

This is basically the only argument I can accept.

I really hope this server doesn't kill another good idea because of fear of change.

Ugh sorry, but your attitude is really f-in annoying.

Having a Vanilla+ server doesn't mean doing everything exactly the way Sega did it. The original game had some serious flaws.

Lets just say, most of them were "managable" flaws, ok?

Remember when every single Grinder and Material used its own inventory and bank slot? Remember when the Meseta limit was one million? Remember when there was no common bank? Remember when everyone had to run to pick up a rare that dropped? Remember when Pinkal VR Spaceship Ultimate had FOUR enemies that all dropped Storm Wand Indra? Nobody complains about the past changes now because they balance the game better.

Nobody complained because those were good changes. I would not say they "balance the game better" though, still good changes.

I put a lot of effort into this game, and I get ticked off when people who barely play complain about changes that barely affect them so that I DON'T GET TO ENJOY THEM.

I never see you play, but I guess it's the different time zones.

It's like when my whole family wants to have a certain meal for Christmas dinner but because my brother (who barely shows up for any other holidays) complains, we have to eat something else. Don't take away my dinner

It's because they value his visits higher than yours, because they see him less often. Maybe you've put too much inflation on your visits.

Anyone who doesn't play this game for at least a few hours every few weeks or month really should recuse themselves from voting. It would be the right thing to do. (This isn't much to ask. If you average a total of 15 minutes a day even, I'd say go ahead and vote.)

The vote should not affect the outcome of this discussion.

Also, due to the sheer complexity of economics in relation to inflation, deflation, and the health of a general economy, I encourage the staff of the server to do whatever they wish regardless of the vote outcome. It's your server, and this isn't stuff that everyone understands.

People who vote "no" don't get it. Right.

EDIT: Oh and maybe (just maybe) the lack of trading is part of the recent balance changes? Putting multiplayer quests into solo (Ep4 Mopup and WOL etc), making solo farming easier. Flooding the market with Lames and HS during Halloween and Christmas. Flooding the market with 30h rares during Christmas. Removing DAR punish to change the easier (self made problem) solo hunt, flooding the market even more with rare items.
How about reverting those changes in part + a slight increase (not 2x) for PD drop rate? (more like 1/850)

 

[Sun]

Yes to both because A: Nuking in MA4x is fun as shit and B: Sphering costs so much but pays off little (it's still better DPS... but it's really kind of an extra). Plus the PD prices are pretty dumb atm.

 

[Dongra]

I'm fine with quality of life changes, as long as character and gear stats aren't changed you guys can do whatever.

 

[Ade]

For me it's always just people like you or Matt saying there's a lack of PDs. Otherwise I never really hear/read anyone complaining. Sure, there were maybe a handful of players who complained about it in my PSO past, but I never took anyone of them serious. They just complained like "can't buy S-Rank specials cause too broke" and at they same time they were the ones spending PDs on Meseta (too lazy to sell junk armor) or other stuff they didn't really need. Those are basically the same kind of people who will tell you how broke they are in real life and yet for some reason, they always have the newest Smartphone. Even if you set PD droprate to 1/500, people like that will still complain.



Doubling the PD drop rate is not exactly 2 to 2.5%, right? That's the typical Ephinea rollercoaster balancing, going from one extreme to another. And if it doesn't work out? Well, shit happens, yolo, I did it for the lulz, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, etc.



Shit, it's almost too easy!



Aaaaaaand here comes the "Sega were just a bunch of idiots who didn't know what they were doing."-attitude again. Was already waiting for that one.



I think it was, cause PSO is already easy enough.



Can't do that because people would create multiple accounts.



This is basically the only argument I can accept.



Ugh sorry, but your attitude is really f-in annoying.



Lets just say, most of them were "managable" flaws, ok?



Nobody complained because those were good changes. I would not say they "balance the game better" though, still good changes.



I never see you play, but I guess it's the different time zones.



It's because they value his visits higher than yours, because they see him less often. Maybe you've put too much inflation on your visits.



The vote should not affect the outcome of this discussion.



People who vote "no" don't get it. Right.

EDIT: Oh and maybe (just maybe) the lack of trading is part of the recent balance changes? Putting multiplayer quests into solo (Ep4 Mopup and WOL etc), making solo farming easier. Flooding the market with Lames and HS during Halloween and Christmas. Flooding the market with 30h rares during Christmas. Removing DAR punish to change the easier (self made problem) solo hunt, flooding the market even more with rare items.
How about reverting those changes in part + a slight increase (not 2x) for PD drop rate? (more like 1/850)

Although you did actually make a few rebuttals, the majority of your post is contrarian sarcasm.

I mean, you call me out for playing the, "Sega had no idea what they were doing" card, but DID THEY? Look at how relatively unsuccessful PSO was as an online game due to their poor planning and foresight. Am I somehow WRONG for saying this?

Example: What kind of idiot makes a game where you can permanently alter the stats of your character by accidentally hitting a wrong button on the quick menu and give NO OPTION to respec your character EVER? Do you really think this was a deliberate choice on their part or just laziness? Occam's Razor points to laziness. Or perhaps you think material resets are too forgiving and should be removed?

Regarding your snide remark about my explanation of inflation: If the U.S. economy was as deflated as the Ephinea economy is now, they might damn well consider raising inflation by 50%, so using the 2.0 to 2.5% as the de facto standard is invalid.

PSO's true failure from an economic standpoint had never been seen because of all the previous iterations of hacking and duping. Now that we see that a person cannot "finish" a character without putting in THOUSANDS of hours, I can declare quite objectively that the system is broken.

The lack of trading is because most people have hit a "wall" on gear where they either need to find gear worth Sphereing or find the PDs to Sphere their good gear. Nobody wants to trade for junk they don't need. This further deflates the value of lesser items in a vicious cycle.

It seems to me that you like your games to be rough, harsh, and unrewarding to play. Either that or you don't like seeing others having fun under your stern, watchful eye. I'm here to tell you that most people enjoy the ability to make reasonable endgame progression in a game without overly-relying on playing the economy. Diablo 3 moved to this model and has since enjoyed immense success compared to its abysmal launch. Why do you think that is?

If you want to express unhappiness anytime the reasonable operators of this server decide to fix some of the backwards, counter-productive, and draconian decisions made by Sega, I suggest you relegate yourself to playing PSO GameCube offline.

 

[Ryan]

I put a lot of effort into this game, and I get ticked off when people who barely play complain about changes that barely affect them so that I DON'T GET TO ENJOY THEM. [...]

Anyone who doesn't play this game for at least a few hours every few weeks or month really should recuse themselves from voting. It would be the right thing to do. (This isn't much to ask. If you average a total of 15 minutes a day even, I'd say go ahead and vote.)

I don't think this is the right attitude to adopt toward people who disagree with you if you're trying to reason with them, both because you're branding your opponents with a trait that might not necessarily fit them and because it's flat-out unreasonable to suggest that people who are a part of this community shouldn't get their fair input. Assuming your opinion is "better" than anyone else's for one reason or another is just rude, and trying to discourage people from giving their input based on said assumption is even moreso.

 

[Aleron Ives]

What kind of idiot makes a game where you can permanently alter the stats of your character by accidentally hitting a wrong button on the quick menu and give NO OPTION to respec your character EVER? Do you really think this was a deliberate choice on their part or just laziness?

The kind of idiot who would keep HUnewearl's ATA growth at a rate designed for a cap of 164 ATA but with a new cap of 199 ATA while also deleting Hit Materials, I assume.

Sega's MO is to rebalance their games by swinging wildly in the opposite direction in an attempt to solve existing problems, thus creating a host of new problems in the process.

going from one extreme to another

...kinda like that.

 

[Cookie]

Although you did actually make a few rebuttals, the majority of your post is contrarian sarcasm.

I mean, you call me out for playing the, "Sega had no idea what they were doing" card, but DID THEY? Look at how relatively unsuccessful PSO was as an online game due to their poor planning and foresight. Am I somehow WRONG for saying this?

Example: What kind of idiot makes a game where you can permanently alter the stats of your character by accidentally hitting a wrong button on the quick menu and give NO OPTION to respec your character EVER? Do you really think this was a deliberate choice on their part or just laziness? Occam's Razor points to laziness. Or perhaps you think material resets are too forgiving and should be removed?

Regarding your snide remark about my explanation of inflation: If the U.S. economy was as deflated as the Ephinea economy is now, they might damn well consider raising inflation by 50%, so using the 2.0 to 2.5% as the de facto standard is invalid.

PSO's true failure from an economic standpoint had never been seen because of all the previous iterations of hacking and duping. Now that we see that a person cannot "finish" a character without putting in THOUSANDS of hours, I can declare quite objectively that the system is broken.

The lack of trading is because most people have hit a "wall" on gear where they either need to find gear worth Sphereing or find the PDs to Sphere their good gear. Nobody wants to trade for junk they don't need. This further deflates the value of lesser items in a vicious cycle.

It seems to me that you like your games to be rough, harsh, and unrewarding to play. Either that or you don't like seeing others having fun under your stern, watchful eye. I'm here to tell you that most people enjoy the ability to make reasonable endgame progression in a game without overly-relying on playing the economy. Diablo 3 moved to this model and has since enjoyed immense success compared to its abysmal launch. Why do you think that is?

If you want to express unhappiness anytime the reasonable operators of this server decide to fix some of the backwards, counter-productive, and draconian decisions made by Sega, I suggest you relegate yourself to playing PSO GameCube offline.

Do I think most gamers nowadays are a bunch of whiney p****** who just want stuff easy? I sure do. Can't get stuff easy? Change the rules until they can, instead of adapting and getting better. I'm still ok with finding some kind of middle ground though, I'm not that stubborn.

I'm just not a fan of Ephinea's rollercoaster balancing, like already mentioned. I prefer fine tuning instead of screaming out loud. Most of that "problem" is also self made by throwing out stuff too easy. Who wants to buy Lame if they can easily get it themselfs? So the root cause for a dead market is not a lack of PDs, it's watering down drop rates by making all/most quests available in solo and removing DAR punish. So to compensate for that, you want to throw out more PDs, whereas I say another way to counter it is to increase item rarity again.

 

[Xileize]

Example: What kind of idiot makes a game where you can permanently alter the stats of your character by accidentally hitting a wrong button on the quick menu and give NO OPTION to respec your character EVER? Do you really think this was a deliberate choice on their part or just laziness? Occam's Razor points to laziness. Or perhaps you think material resets are too forgiving and should be removed?

This is not a valid argument.

If you can name me a game from 2000/2001 that allows you to respec, I'd love to hear it.

Baldur's Gate 1/2 doesn't, Diablo 1/2 doesn't, Planescape Torment doesn't, Divine Divinity doesn't, Arcanum doesn't, Gothic doesn't, Sacred (2004) doesn't, the list goes on.

In all of these games, if you accidentally clicked the wrong skill or added a point to the wrong stat, you either sucked it up or started over again. The only defense is that you could reload a save game if you have one and notice the problem before overwriting it.

I'm sure there may be a game or two back then that did, but the fact is respeccing is a reasonably new concept, so it's not really fair to chastise SEGA for not having the foresight to do something no one else was doing at the time.

SEGA made a lot of mistakes but they were by no means lazy for not including respeccing, it just wasn't a thing at the time.

As for the actual topic at hand, I'm all for quests being added to solo mode, but I personally don't see the need for increasing the amount of PDs in the economy. For the most part, I agree with Ryan/Cookie/whoever else has made good points regarding the issue.

 

[FIghter]

When it comes to game design, less is more.

So I voted against PD increase.

I think the slow grind and item hunt of PSO is what makes it interesting. I used to be on a server that dropped PD's like candy, and it over powered everyone.

 

[Kodoku]

More solo quests please c: My friends didn't grow up with this game on the cube like i did so they refuse to give it a shot Could doing challenge mode solo also be a thing? I'd love to play c mode its like my only goal on this game but its annoying to teach people like myself and it makes me feel guilty slowing things down with my suck.

 

[Cassie 9]

Yeah, I guess I haven't really been hearing anybody complaining about the stagnation of the economy. Because I'm relatively new (April 2017), I guess I'm not really comparing the market to anything. It seems fine to me. If people are really that mad about it, then make the changes I guess. But please make the PD storage higher, then

If people seem to be divided on it, why not increase the drop rate only a little bit instead of doubling it?

 

[MagicLuthee]

Voted both, first reason is because when I play PSOBB (not very often I have to admit, my highest character is a lvl 120-ish Hunewearl...) I play solo because I'm awful at social interactions / relations, second reason is some people have laid out valid arguments as to why more PD could be good.

 

[Bonesy]

Voted Both being that I mainly agree with Quests and eventually I do want to get a character past like level 25 or so at some point and maybe even hit endgame. I hate headache-inducing endgames that depend on rare CHANCETIME drops.

 

[anime]

Oh and maybe (just maybe) the lack of trading is part of the recent balance changes? Putting multiplayer quests into solo (Ep4 Mopup and WOL etc), making solo farming easier. Flooding the market with Lames and HS during Halloween and Christmas. Flooding the market with 30h rares during Christmas. Removing DAR punish to change the easier (self made problem) solo hunt, flooding the market even more with rare items.
How about reverting those changes in part + a slight increase (not 2x) for PD drop rate? (more like 1/850)

^
Something like this is the real solution, I'm just not sure if it's possible. I hope we can work together to get a solution that actually fixes the problem that the staff has caused instead of making the game even easier for everyone and halving parts of endgame progression.