Solomode Quests and Photon Drop Increase
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Cyb3r_ZER0
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If you had over a thousand PDs worth of items acquired prior to some of the major economy crashing events and then be told overnight that they lost a significant amount of value because of a proposed solution to fix an issue caused by the lax regulation of event rewards it would be easier to understand why not everyone is agreeing with it.
XiCwoodXi
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This!! It boggles my mind why high networth players would agree to this? Also I thought the economy was dead because of Seasons not because of lack of PDs. The market was fine in my opinion before Seasons came around. I was selling 2-3 satos every day, now that all new players join seasons and you can't trade with them. I now sell like 2-3 per week. Not because of a lack of PDS.
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This isn't really what I meant by "perception". A better example would be someone who shows up here, hasn't traded at all since Schthack, and remembers a Lame being some crazy double-digit number of PDs. They price check it and figure out it sells for 5, and say "what the hell, that's nothing", even though 5 PDs is worth a hell of a lot more here than on Schthack. That's what I'm talking about.
OK, now I agree that this is a problem. My issue with this solution, then, is that it won't do anything to solve the problem. Making PDs more common makes S-Ranks and Spheres easier to get, which is completely fine with me, but what would it do to raise any items' values? PDs will be worth less (if the drop rate doubles, then I'll ballpark it at making a Lame 10 PDs instead of 5), and regular items won't be worth more (the heavy damage to the values of items like hit Zanba, hit FS, hit Vivi, etc. done by events likely won't be affected by this). I'm willing to work to solve this, but raising PD drop rates just isn't going to do it. You raise the example of real-life economic stimulus packages - this is like throwing said stimulus into a fire. It's pointless and it'll just devalue items even more without raising the value of anything else.
Lileya
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Huh? Your stuff already lost its value, whether this fix happens or not, because the economy of this server is dead. What you're holding on to that could have been worth 500 PDs 2 years ago (sorry I don't know you, maybe you only joined 6 months ago for all I know), is now probably worth half of that because nobody has the PDs to buy it off of you...
Just to clarify, in case this is confusing, when I talk about "your stuff", I'm not talking about s-ranks. I'm talking about, for example, a Psycho Wand, Sealed J-Sword, etc. Those clearly dropped in value, because they now sell for less. Hence, you'll be able to buy less s-ranks and Photon Spheres (fixed cost items) if you liquidated your current assets.
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VENOM
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Make pds more common, lessen the wealth divide of epihnea.
Or not, the rich remain rich and the others have to climb mt everest to get all their SR and even dream of sphering.
People non stop complain about a dead economy and lack of pds, yet when a practical solution is proposed, for some reason it is voted against.
Either way, it doesn't impact me too much- my gear is mostly done. However, I feel this would be a v good thing- think about it, my friends. Only really one chance to vote on this (ie given how the xp curve will probably never happen now following a close vote).
Or not, the rich remain rich and the others have to climb mt everest to get all their SR and even dream of sphering.
People non stop complain about a dead economy and lack of pds, yet when a practical solution is proposed, for some reason it is voted against.
Either way, it doesn't impact me too much- my gear is mostly done. However, I feel this would be a v good thing- think about it, my friends. Only really one chance to vote on this (ie given how the xp curve will probably never happen now following a close vote).
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ElenorCamuel
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I voted yes to both. I haven't seen anyone give a coherent argument as to why I should vote otherwise. I have also yet to see anyone who is against this offer a solution of their own.
People are acting like deflation is something that is good for the economy of the game? Event team gives out Fatsia which is only worthwhile with the purchase of a fixed rate 20 PD item, but thinks it is motivating for me to run PW2 130 times (if RNG is kind) to sell 4 Lames to purchase said item? Deflation discourages me from playing not the other way around.
Deflation is bad because it causes people to hoard. No one wants to purchase items today when they will be cheaper tomorrow. No one wants to sell items at a loss so they hold on them in hopes the deflation is a temporary condition. Deflation is bad for the economy of the game, because like in the real world, if my dollar is worth less and my fixed rate costs such as my mortgage don't go down as they are artificially propped up I become insolvent.
This solution addresses the concerns of players who actually want PDs as it will allow us to potentially sphere items and purchase add specials to Sranks at a reasonable pace. It also encourages people to actually play. PDs that drop at double rate only enter the economy if people actually play the game. PDs don't drop in Fodra 1-1. If that is your bread and butter quest you probably don't need to worry about inflation
The main problem of the server isn't the Xmas items (obviously those killed the market for certain items but deflation existed prior to Xmas), it is that there is not enough new players for veterans to sell staple items to at a sufficient enough rate to make it feasible to collect enough items for Spheres, etc. and this solution solves that. I'd like to thank the team for coming up with a proactive solution to a very real problem.
People are acting like deflation is something that is good for the economy of the game? Event team gives out Fatsia which is only worthwhile with the purchase of a fixed rate 20 PD item, but thinks it is motivating for me to run PW2 130 times (if RNG is kind) to sell 4 Lames to purchase said item? Deflation discourages me from playing not the other way around.
Deflation is bad because it causes people to hoard. No one wants to purchase items today when they will be cheaper tomorrow. No one wants to sell items at a loss so they hold on them in hopes the deflation is a temporary condition. Deflation is bad for the economy of the game, because like in the real world, if my dollar is worth less and my fixed rate costs such as my mortgage don't go down as they are artificially propped up I become insolvent.
This solution addresses the concerns of players who actually want PDs as it will allow us to potentially sphere items and purchase add specials to Sranks at a reasonable pace. It also encourages people to actually play. PDs that drop at double rate only enter the economy if people actually play the game. PDs don't drop in Fodra 1-1. If that is your bread and butter quest you probably don't need to worry about inflation
The main problem of the server isn't the Xmas items (obviously those killed the market for certain items but deflation existed prior to Xmas), it is that there is not enough new players for veterans to sell staple items to at a sufficient enough rate to make it feasible to collect enough items for Spheres, etc. and this solution solves that. I'd like to thank the team for coming up with a proactive solution to a very real problem.
dewdadash
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I do like the quest update a lot, I'm still trying to weigh both sides of the PD drop being altered.
As of right now though I lean towards keeping PD rate the same. I started playing this server rather recently, started last January but didn't really start playing more heavily around summer 17' event. The market was pumped with badges and auctions were very active and healthy. Buying that 40h zanba(auction) and RR(tradelist) with badges is probably what set me on pace to keep playing, otherwise I wouldn't of had anything to start with. Take that essential gear and then being able to hunt items like sjs and ubers with hit% is what makes the end game for me. It was somewhat hard to get v101/lame/hs for a good price back then but I remember it wasn't too hard to hunt and find lame with no hit, PoSS, 15h HS. Lame being 5pds now, and HS being low is a good thing for people starting out, it makes them aware what these items are so they can purchase it at a low price, then realize how good zerk special is so they feel more encouraged to buy one with hit later on or hunt it.
The best part of this game is having increased hbr, that's when the server was also healthy w/ hbr for wol4/en4 to hunt PoM,HS,pwand as well as the Halloween event and xmas fiasco. Having this encourages you to play to find that HS w/ hit, excal with hit, etc, those will always keep their "value". I only really felt "screwed" from using badges to get 30h SN and 30h FS, just for both of those to be worth practically nothing now. But again, those starting out need those items and 40h+ FS and SN still hold their value very well, so overall I don't mind that hurting me. Also since this server has been established for like the last few years, its nice being able to just search on here what an item is worth and getting a quick idea based off past auctions/price guide. Inflating the PD market would throw all those listings out of whack. Everything would probably be doubled in price later on after market stabilized but it would be hard to price early on with pd increase introduction.
The only benefit I see for increasing PDs is so that it makes it easier to sphere your items/srank specials. I do remember on scht when PS's were duped to hell so it was nice having an excal with 100 native and killing easily. On this server I haven't sphered an item and only carry 2 sranks. It'd be nice to use more/sphere more sure, and at points I have accumulated enough to do so but the majority of the time I prefer their purchasing power to buy the rares that I need. To offset that, things such as giving spheres for presents were nice to pump the economy but not too much. Spheres being given out for seasons also pumps the economy, but seasons wasn't implemented well just cuz you can't play with normal mode so it divides the economy/player base in half. That and having crappy HBR quests the last 2 months is what made the server dead recently. I don't see much point in playing if the only goal is to get a sphere out of it, I want to hunt sjs/hs w/ high hit/hp/etc.
As of right now though I lean towards keeping PD rate the same. I started playing this server rather recently, started last January but didn't really start playing more heavily around summer 17' event. The market was pumped with badges and auctions were very active and healthy. Buying that 40h zanba(auction) and RR(tradelist) with badges is probably what set me on pace to keep playing, otherwise I wouldn't of had anything to start with. Take that essential gear and then being able to hunt items like sjs and ubers with hit% is what makes the end game for me. It was somewhat hard to get v101/lame/hs for a good price back then but I remember it wasn't too hard to hunt and find lame with no hit, PoSS, 15h HS. Lame being 5pds now, and HS being low is a good thing for people starting out, it makes them aware what these items are so they can purchase it at a low price, then realize how good zerk special is so they feel more encouraged to buy one with hit later on or hunt it.
The best part of this game is having increased hbr, that's when the server was also healthy w/ hbr for wol4/en4 to hunt PoM,HS,pwand as well as the Halloween event and xmas fiasco. Having this encourages you to play to find that HS w/ hit, excal with hit, etc, those will always keep their "value". I only really felt "screwed" from using badges to get 30h SN and 30h FS, just for both of those to be worth practically nothing now. But again, those starting out need those items and 40h+ FS and SN still hold their value very well, so overall I don't mind that hurting me. Also since this server has been established for like the last few years, its nice being able to just search on here what an item is worth and getting a quick idea based off past auctions/price guide. Inflating the PD market would throw all those listings out of whack. Everything would probably be doubled in price later on after market stabilized but it would be hard to price early on with pd increase introduction.
The only benefit I see for increasing PDs is so that it makes it easier to sphere your items/srank specials. I do remember on scht when PS's were duped to hell so it was nice having an excal with 100 native and killing easily. On this server I haven't sphered an item and only carry 2 sranks. It'd be nice to use more/sphere more sure, and at points I have accumulated enough to do so but the majority of the time I prefer their purchasing power to buy the rares that I need. To offset that, things such as giving spheres for presents were nice to pump the economy but not too much. Spheres being given out for seasons also pumps the economy, but seasons wasn't implemented well just cuz you can't play with normal mode so it divides the economy/player base in half. That and having crappy HBR quests the last 2 months is what made the server dead recently. I don't see much point in playing if the only goal is to get a sphere out of it, I want to hunt sjs/hs w/ high hit/hp/etc.
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shadow_FIX
ephinea music instructor
i'm certainly for opening more quests to solomode. i mean, i'd run boss rush quests solo if they were available, but i don't necessarily advocate for them to be included. max attack solomode could be cool though, at least you have to actually try a little bit to get through those.
i don't think doubling PD's is a good idea, however. i think the economy functions just fine as it is. as someone said early on, increasing PD drop is an attempt to solve a problem that just doesn't exist.
thrilled to see some proactive response to comments from the playerbase; you guys are great <3
i don't think doubling PD's is a good idea, however. i think the economy functions just fine as it is. as someone said early on, increasing PD drop is an attempt to solve a problem that just doesn't exist.
thrilled to see some proactive response to comments from the playerbase; you guys are great <3
Ade
;3
As a licensed financial advisor and a very experienced PSO player, I figured it best to weigh in on this:
A healthy amount of inflation is a good thing. The U.S. economy experiences inflation of approximately 2 to 2.5% per year. As the population increases, the amount of labor, goods, and services increases. The money supply tends to rise a bit faster in relation to the increase in goods and services so that lending and borrowing can occur, which are the backbone of free enterprise and innovation. Unlike animals, human beings have the capacity and DESIRE to create more resources than what they need to survive. Inflation in prices through control of the money supply exists to carefully balance of labor, supply, and demand. If inflation is rising too quickly, the Federal Reserve can tighten the money supply so that the dollar's value increases in relation to goods. Too many goods being stockpiled and not enough purchases being made? (Which is Ephinea's exact problem) Then loosen the money supply so that liquidity increases.
These are objective economic factors. Ephinea is a closed system and we don't have to pay upkeep costs to "survive" (our characters don't have to pay for housing, food, etc.) but the general principle is the same.
Right now, on PSO, deflation is causing the game's economy to stagnate, which demotivates players from playing. Increasing the PD supply so that a person could eventually Sphere their own gear, without necessarily having to trade for PDs, will create two positive effects:
1. Motivation to play increases.
2. The increased play along with inflation will naturally stimulate the game's economy. (Which further increases motivation to play...)
See where this goes? It's clearly the best route.
The overall progression of this server has been much slower than pre-wipe Schtserv because this is the first PSO economy in which 99.9% of the PDs aren't duped. I don't think Sega would have made PDs as rare as they did if they had any REMOTE IDEA how long it would have taken to legitimately Sphere one item without duping PDs. The grind is beyond insane. Not to mention that, if the current practice of Sphereing requires massive trading, it means that a lot of PDs will have to be taken out of the hands of others so that only the absolutely most dedicated players can Sphere anything. I don't think this exclusionary mechanic was intended.
Increasing the PD supply will greatly increase the amount people play. It will still take hundreds, if not thousands, of hours to fully Sphere one's gear (not to mention you have to find items worth Sphereing).
I urge anyone who voted "no" on the increase to trust in my financial expertise and change your vote to "yes." I am not saying this to be arrogant. I've spent years studying and testing for various investment licenses, and these are the general principles that ACTUAL economies work off of. I am as certain that this will help the game's economy (and player enagagment) to the same degree that I am certain gravity exists. Any fear that this will decrease motivation or cause people to "finish" the game too quickly is extremely irrational.
Edit: Please increase the common bank PD limit.
A healthy amount of inflation is a good thing. The U.S. economy experiences inflation of approximately 2 to 2.5% per year. As the population increases, the amount of labor, goods, and services increases. The money supply tends to rise a bit faster in relation to the increase in goods and services so that lending and borrowing can occur, which are the backbone of free enterprise and innovation. Unlike animals, human beings have the capacity and DESIRE to create more resources than what they need to survive. Inflation in prices through control of the money supply exists to carefully balance of labor, supply, and demand. If inflation is rising too quickly, the Federal Reserve can tighten the money supply so that the dollar's value increases in relation to goods. Too many goods being stockpiled and not enough purchases being made? (Which is Ephinea's exact problem) Then loosen the money supply so that liquidity increases.
These are objective economic factors. Ephinea is a closed system and we don't have to pay upkeep costs to "survive" (our characters don't have to pay for housing, food, etc.) but the general principle is the same.
Right now, on PSO, deflation is causing the game's economy to stagnate, which demotivates players from playing. Increasing the PD supply so that a person could eventually Sphere their own gear, without necessarily having to trade for PDs, will create two positive effects:
1. Motivation to play increases.
2. The increased play along with inflation will naturally stimulate the game's economy. (Which further increases motivation to play...)
See where this goes? It's clearly the best route.
The overall progression of this server has been much slower than pre-wipe Schtserv because this is the first PSO economy in which 99.9% of the PDs aren't duped. I don't think Sega would have made PDs as rare as they did if they had any REMOTE IDEA how long it would have taken to legitimately Sphere one item without duping PDs. The grind is beyond insane. Not to mention that, if the current practice of Sphereing requires massive trading, it means that a lot of PDs will have to be taken out of the hands of others so that only the absolutely most dedicated players can Sphere anything. I don't think this exclusionary mechanic was intended.
Increasing the PD supply will greatly increase the amount people play. It will still take hundreds, if not thousands, of hours to fully Sphere one's gear (not to mention you have to find items worth Sphereing).
I urge anyone who voted "no" on the increase to trust in my financial expertise and change your vote to "yes." I am not saying this to be arrogant. I've spent years studying and testing for various investment licenses, and these are the general principles that ACTUAL economies work off of. I am as certain that this will help the game's economy (and player enagagment) to the same degree that I am certain gravity exists. Any fear that this will decrease motivation or cause people to "finish" the game too quickly is extremely irrational.
Edit: Please increase the common bank PD limit.
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nemo
lobby shmurda
I'm chewing through the massive amount of detail in that post, but I feel that it's not that complex of an issue. Many people here appreciate the buying power of a single PD, especially when starting out and when you really meter out how long it takes to build up the required wealth to kit out your S-Ranks and get your basic tier items in a decent amount of time (I got my two S-Ranks of two weeks of on/off play, after all.)
I feel like the Single Player Quest focus will provide the means of filling out the economy providing more avenues of acquiring material whether they play alone or in a group. If we're really dead set on doubling the PD drop rate, it might just be a better idea to make the Quest changes first and see how the economy replies in turn. If things don't change after that, then I suppose fair is fair.
I feel like the Single Player Quest focus will provide the means of filling out the economy providing more avenues of acquiring material whether they play alone or in a group. If we're really dead set on doubling the PD drop rate, it might just be a better idea to make the Quest changes first and see how the economy replies in turn. If things don't change after that, then I suppose fair is fair.
Ade
;3
For how many PDs it takes to add a Special to an S-Rank or Sphere an item, I've always felt like PDs are too rare. You can easily get a bad streak of three, four, or five hours of consistent gameplay without a single PD dropping. Runs in which more than one PD drop are very rare. Assuming one PD drops every two hours, it takes 200 hours to get one Sphere. Let's say most items need about three or four Spheres to be finished, so we're talking 600 to 800 hours of gameplay for one item. So if you have two characters that each have three items you want to Sphere, that's 3,600 to 4,800 hours to completely "finish" your characters. That is beyond insane.
Yes, you can trade for PDs, but I'm talking about the sheer man hours needed to acquire the PDs. If you trade for those PDs, now someone else doesn't have them, which means that only the "1% ers" would be able to Sphere anything.
Also, to the person who said: Why would wealthy players want this?
Because people who acquire a tremendous amount of wealth usually understand sustainability. I have about 600 PDs and 3 Spheres right now. I might take a "hit" on that now, but the increased motivation to play is a rising tide that will raise all ships. I also have a huge stockpile of various items I'd like to sell, as I imagine many do, which will increase in PD value. That brings us to our next important topic...diversifying your portfolio. Okay I'll stop...
Yes, you can trade for PDs, but I'm talking about the sheer man hours needed to acquire the PDs. If you trade for those PDs, now someone else doesn't have them, which means that only the "1% ers" would be able to Sphere anything.
Also, to the person who said: Why would wealthy players want this?
Because people who acquire a tremendous amount of wealth usually understand sustainability. I have about 600 PDs and 3 Spheres right now. I might take a "hit" on that now, but the increased motivation to play is a rising tide that will raise all ships. I also have a huge stockpile of various items I'd like to sell, as I imagine many do, which will increase in PD value. That brings us to our next important topic...diversifying your portfolio. Okay I'll stop...
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ToasterMage
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How about we get a direct deposit of 10pds a week right into our shared bank.
Ade
;3
That's socialism. Bad ToasterMage, bad!
Not to mention the "supply" of Paganini's ability to Sphere items and add Specials is not "finite," so there's no real-world equivalent of this. The results would be devastating.
Ade
;3
Sorry for another post:
Another thing: I would encourage the playerbase to be more understanding of the Ephinea staff's position here. I mean, look at what Sega created initially:
1. In v1 / v2: Some items were so ridiculously rare that, without mass cheating, many of them would have never seen the light of day. Obviously an MMO needs to be rewarding, but if you can't find an item after a decade of playing, that's too rare for any reasonable human being.
2. For GC / BB: Every economy prior to this wasn't an actual economy because of the amount of "counterfeit" currency. Thus, we've never seen a PSO economy where things were allowed to work naturally until now. Not even the official servers were free of this. After a couple years of experimenting with a real, dupe-free economy, it's become clear that Sega's path to endgame progression puts unrealistic demands on the average (or even highly dedicated) player.
Another thing: I would encourage the playerbase to be more understanding of the Ephinea staff's position here. I mean, look at what Sega created initially:
1. In v1 / v2: Some items were so ridiculously rare that, without mass cheating, many of them would have never seen the light of day. Obviously an MMO needs to be rewarding, but if you can't find an item after a decade of playing, that's too rare for any reasonable human being.
2. For GC / BB: Every economy prior to this wasn't an actual economy because of the amount of "counterfeit" currency. Thus, we've never seen a PSO economy where things were allowed to work naturally until now. Not even the official servers were free of this. After a couple years of experimenting with a real, dupe-free economy, it's become clear that Sega's path to endgame progression puts unrealistic demands on the average (or even highly dedicated) player.
Mome Chomsky
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I'm pretty indifferent regarding the PD thing, but it seems to me like plenty of players have close enough to endgame gear so I don't really see what the issue is. How much more common are they proposed to become? On schthack when I played you could more or less get a sphere for raising 3-4 mags or getting 2 s-ranks, which I don't think is very sensible. Hopefully care would be taken to avoid such a level of inflation. I get that it's annoying to sphere stuff, but I'm not sure if it's something that should be changed. I would say that new players getting good items too quickly is generally not good for the community.
I have mixed feelings on solo mode quests as well. Again I get that it's frustrating that you can't really make great use of your time when there's no one on to play with, and that some quests/areas are just not very accessible to some classes, but that's kind of just how this game is. I would agree that it's nice to have a variety of things you can do solo, but whether solo mode quests really give you more variety in gameplay or just more stuff to do that's easy and worthwhile is debatable. Solo mode quests definitely make the game easier, and while a lot of people might think that's fun (and I'll admit it kind of is), I think it goes beyond the goals of the server.
I have mixed feelings on solo mode quests as well. Again I get that it's frustrating that you can't really make great use of your time when there's no one on to play with, and that some quests/areas are just not very accessible to some classes, but that's kind of just how this game is. I would agree that it's nice to have a variety of things you can do solo, but whether solo mode quests really give you more variety in gameplay or just more stuff to do that's easy and worthwhile is debatable. Solo mode quests definitely make the game easier, and while a lot of people might think that's fun (and I'll admit it kind of is), I think it goes beyond the goals of the server.
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