Future of PSO (Community and Rates)

On my phone, so excuse the lack of quotes.

It's good to know that I was wrong about HBR. I'll grant that doing the quests twice for a 10% increased DAR is pretty nice. It is still somewhat restrictive, since you're limited to what quests you can do increase the rate.

The tennis thing is why I said in the same complex. It wouldn't be a case of the court being governed by different staff. It would be rather like what you next said, with the easy mode. It would be possible to create something like hardcore, or to introduce options upon game creation similar to how they did with drop style. The purpose of a normal account in this case would be for people who want to play the game as intended without the boosted rates or whatever. There'd be no reason why they couldn't trade, since as I said before, a Lavis Cannon is a Lavis Cannon. If the normal mode player and easy mode player are comfortable with the trade and feel that things are fair, then I don't really see what the problem is. If normal players want to make a point of not trading for items they suspect were from the boosted rates, then that would be up to them.

The Pokémon thing isn't false. Yes, raw stats are important, but there comes a point where strategy can win out. Everything from creating good synergy with their abilities, making good use of different statuses, or burst damage options etc. Somebody who really knows what they're doing, is going to beat somebody with raw stats. Somebody with stats that knows what they're doing would be trickier of course, but certainly not insurmountable.

With the final point, "need" was perhaps the wrong word. I was talking very much of hypothetical items, such as the items potentially tweaked to become viable alternatives as you progress towards the items you want.

PSO is pretty much never ending. Once you know the game well enough to beat everything comfortably, the only real place to go after that is to beat it quicker. This means increasing our skills, but also means getting stronger equips. Let's say that a person really liked Sabers and was wanting a Lavis Cannon, but currently using something like a Durandal. The grind there would take quite some time. By intermediary items, I was thinking more along the lines of Ancient Saber or Red Saber. Items that fill the gap between "Charge whatever" and it's raw ATP counterpart. There would also be things like giving Visk Arrest. This would create a nice middle ground between whatever paralysis you were using at first, and the eventual 50% hit Arrest Raygun or Laser. Even more of a middle ground since Visk doesn't appear in Ult so is much less likely to have any notable hit. Then we have the likes of Burning Visit; a weapon which is worse than its former version, and requires a Photon Booster. By allowing it to combo, you'd have a slow moving projectile that pierces enemies, but is still powerful enough to serve as an alternative to a Berserk S-Launcher until you get C-Mode cleared.

Anyhoo, I'm actually in bed about to fall asleep, so sorry if my points seen jumbled or I'm not being clear. In either case, it's been nice talking with you Ceri0n; it's nice having civil differences of opinion. ^_^
 
This is my two meseta opinion which isn't worth much but here goes, and you can correct me if I'm wrong as this is hypothetical;

Your idea of bringing people in that some players are looking for something different offered in PSO, such as increased rates for those with less real world time or different game modes for a new experience, would split the community the same way as different servers do to an extent. Some increased rate players are only going to associate with similar players and others will only create characters for a certain mode. It has the same problem legacy and progression servers have made in MMOs, it keeps people playing the game but doesn't fix the problem of people playing the game together. Again, IMO.
 
I think it's great the way it is.

It's pretty easy to "beat the game" in terms of clearing all content. On par with other games I would say. Just the right amount of challenge in that you do need to learn fights and have a basic understanding of gear (i.e., 50H Charge Vulcans), but don't need to spend countless hours mastering a fight to beat it or leveling to 200 or getting elite end game gear to beat the final bosses.

The rest is a grind for efficiency, status, fun, or whatever other reason you may have for playing. The events, HBR, and rotating boosts provide plenty of really good boosts for a lot of the difficult hunts. I've got pretty much all the mid-game gear for all 3 classes from casual play since I started around Feb.

Now I'm saving up for some upgrades as I move into late-game gear. I doubt I'll ever get to the rich boi super late game point (all sphered everything) since I will probably burn out by that point and move on to other games, but I'm not going to complain about the great experience over several hundred hours played in a free game. I still enjoy the grind for marginal upgrades for now. And there's just a ton of content in additional quests that I'm still seeing new stuff as HBR continues to rotate.

Boosting EXP or drop rates much beyond what is already done will kind of undermine all 3 phases of the game in my opinion, and really reduce the satisfaction of acquiring decent stuff. While it may provide a better experience for brand new players it will likely just accelerate the burn-out for the consistent players, which are the ones keeping this server around.

There is the Ultima server for those looking for a really hyped progression experience, custom items, etc. Or if you're really passionate about it you could even start your own server. Also, although I haven't tried it personally, I understand that PSO2 is kind of a modernized version of the game that you could play.

EDIT: You also mentioned a PD boost, which I don't necessarily disagree with. There's been plenty of debate about that. I think it could be done temporarily, maybe around the Jan-Mar timeline when population is down and the economy lags a bit.
 
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EDEN: Unknown (site was offline at time of sampling)
DESTINY: 11 players
SCHTSERV: 24 players
ULTIMA: 30 players
EPHINEA: 74 players (as many as all the other servers combined)
-- Saturday 10/20/2018, around midnight

This is one sampling, but I think nostalgia has a lot to do with these numbers. Ephinea replicates Sega PSOBB minus the horrible annoyances [shudders at the memory of EXP loss on death, or hunting PGF before realizing it was a disabled drop]. Modifying PSO is polarizing; it's hard to disagree with a near-original experience.

Everyone has their own ideas. I have had my own, e.g. increase grinder level of lower level rares to have a wider variety of "endgame equips" (but some would say that devalues rares), fuse all servers into one w/ different Ships changing the game mechanics (how?!!), etc. but my voice is just Yet Another Person With Ideas.

I cannot see all server owners combining. To offer multiple gamemodes would involve heavy programming (stretch thin Soda and co.) More population also means more server overhead, more people, more drama. With 500ish players on SegaBB, people fled to whatever quiet corners they could find. The end result is the same - small groups.

Many private servers is a good thing. Smaller scale communities are more comprehensible to people. There's a certain charm that comes from a smaller group that shares your ideals. I feel like Ephinea's size is perfect at the size that it is. If you want to test your ideas, grab a coding book and spin your own server with like-minded people. The world always needs more creativity.

As for me? I dream a future where the custom Unity client succeeds:
After the Unity client became the new HD standard for real PSOBB servers, the next step was always extended content - a new Unity-only server was created, its first project a fan made Episode V, featuring new classes HUmarl and HUnewm - as originally featured in the Dreamcast "Book of Hunters" art book (also contained artwork of HUcaseal, FOmar and RAmarl before their debut on Gamecube).

Thankfully, Sega's lawyers have chosen not to sue us all into oblivion, and we're happily playing PSO EP5 and soon 6 in glorious 1080p with modern visuals, even on our smartphones (Unity, after all, can run on mobile devices). With the ability to modify both client and server code, PSO has been extended like never before - there is more to the game now than just "level up to loot to kill faster," especially at Level 200. Fans are creating new custom monsters and areas to explore every year, and a recreation of the events of PSO EP3 CARD Revolution has just been announced...

---- *snap back to reality*
Well, it MIGHT happen. Right now we're looking at untextured cubes.
In the meantime, plenty of programming and 3D modeling tutorials lying around. The future will need designers*
*...assuming of course Sega doesn't do to the Unity project, or us, what they did to Streets of Rage Remake.
 
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There'd be no reason why they couldn't trade, since as I said before, a Lavis Cannon is a Lavis Cannon. If the normal mode player and easy mode player are comfortable with the trade and feel that things are fair, then I don't really see what the problem is. If normal players want to make a point of not trading for items they suspect were from the boosted rates, then that would be up to them.
Now that would be completely unfair. Equality of oppertunity is great, not of outcome. Someone that works harder will go towards his goal faster (it depends somewhat on IQ as well but we'd better take that out of the equation). You need to have to agree to certain rules to play with each other and if you don't, you play a different game that looks somewhat simular.
The Pokémon thing isn't false. Yes, raw stats are important, but there comes a point where strategy can win out. Everything from creating good synergy with their abilities, making good use of different statuses, or burst damage options etc. Somebody who really knows what they're doing, is going to beat somebody with raw stats.
Now lets suppose both know what they are doing since that is the normal circumstance in competitive battling and cognitively they are about the same level. The one with double the stats will simple outplay the other one, period. The one bound to baby pokemon (or dogs or whatever) has lesser options than someone not bound to a certain theme and thus can create synergy way easier. Comparing a noob and a good player is like comparing apples with pears because the skill of the players were not the center of the discussion here, changing the game is. I hearby challenge you to a pokemon showdown game to illustrate this ;) . Seeing your arguments you might not know the meta there too.
With the final point, "need" was perhaps the wrong word. I was talking very much of hypothetical items, such as the items potentially tweaked to become viable alternatives as you progress towards the items you want.
Don't see that happening but if it does not alter the meta game then I don't care that much. If it doesn't change it why bother in the first place right?
Items that fill the gap between "Charge whatever" and it's raw ATP counterpart.
Those are there but the charge one will almost always outperform the raw atp counterpart.
and the eventual 50% hit Arrest Raygun or Laser
This is not high end, those are one PD, sometimes for both depending on the one selling them.

The rates on this server are already way better than the rates on SEGA's for example because of PSO2 rates. Events, DAR, rare enemy and RDR boosts in certain weeks only increases it further without even HBR being mentioned here. We just use the droprates as 'base' rates to calculate with.

Please don't my last argument personal but it seems that you lack the knowledge of how this server is being ran and what the prices mostly are of items for example. I think if you would, we would not be having this conversation since there are a lot of fals or incomplete assumptions in your story to begin with. If you don't believe me then please let me proof it ;) . Anyhow, if you were to play on this server I would give you a helping hand in terms of knowledge of the game itself (if needed ofcourse) and the common prices of items on the server. Just make your questions as concrete as possible ;) .
 
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There's absolutely no offense being taken at all; this whole topic started as a random dream-inspired musing, so to get this discussion from it is wonderful. I've been very open in saying that I've not been around in a very long time, and though I did have over 1,200 hours on shithack, this place is rather different. On the contrary, I'm honestly happy that we're actually having a reasoned and considered conversation about this. There's been no attacks, no snarky comments etc., which frankly is testament to how nice a server and community this is.

Koh - Your 2 Meseta's useful to hear. You've basically said that regardless of where people are, the different groups of people are going to maintain their different groups anyway. I think I'd argue that if things remain as they are, then that would definitely be the case, but bringing people together at least introduces more opportunities to try different things. Let's say that on one server nobody did Battle Mode, but another one had a community that did. By encouraging people to the 2nd server, they'd potentially be exposed to it and might consider giving it a go.

SLU - It was nice reading your post. Honestly, it rather reminded me of all those years ago when I found my first DB's Saber, and then my excitement when I skipped Kaladbolg and found a Durandal. I was looking for a Double Saber in GC, but never did get one. I remember lucking out with SoaB and getting a 30% Hit God Hand. I was literally beating all of Ult with that on my HUmar, by NH'ing most things. Very slow progress indeed, but hey, it worked.

I did play on the JP PSO2 server for a little bit, but I just didn't feel comfortable at all. The very atmosphere there made me feel unwelcome. Then there was the constant threat that if a Mod wanted, I could be banned at any time. It felt like having the Sword of Damocles over my head. I can't help but wonder if it would be different if those early hackers didn't do what they did.

The point you make of progression towards Ult is a very fair one. I've often said to new players not to rush to Ult. The early game is the time to do some of the story, get to grips with the combos and weapon types, learn enemy patterns a bit, etc. However, I'm also in the camp that views N to VH as an extended tutorial. In many ways, I feel that PSO is similar to Devil May Cry; the game begins on Ultimate, or HUmar Must Die mode.

Looking back on my experiences, I'm inclined to say the game up to Ult is pretty well balanced. The VH EXP grind is maybe a little too long, but not overwhelmingly so.

The problem then really becomes Ult progression. Why ever go for a Musashi, Yamato, or Asuka when it's probably easier to get S&Y, or Jizai? The Double Sabers are pretty much useless, and as is every Dagger besides the easily obtainable DLS.

You know, maybe my key issue isn't so much rates, it's more the lack of equipment options. That's not to say that every item would have to end up at the same strength, but it'd be nice to have them be usable for a bit. I feel on Ult that by the time you even find a decent weapon, you're already looking for a better one; so why not just go for the better one in the first place?

The increased PDs would go with this too, since it opens up more options for players by allowing the %'ing of weaker weapons which would maintain their usefulness for longer, and would make playing with the items you like at least a little more doable. Add to that an increase in PB's, Waters etc. Then C-Mode would be a bit more doable, since you'd be able to make better use of the rewards.

I still have fond memories of my Berserk S-Rifle, Berserk S-Launcher, and my Chaos S-Needle. Those weapons worked so nicely on my RAmar.

Xira - Thanks for the numbers. Is good to know that PSO is maybe not "quite" as dead as I thought.

What you say about modifying PSO being polarising is certainly true, buy it depends to what extent. If these conversations don't happen, then we'll never know. The suggestions you made there are ones that I would be in agreement with. Making some of the useless weapons a little stronger, or adding a little more grind to others is not a bad idea I feel. If you hadn't said that, the community wouldn't know, nor would we know if anybody felt the same way. Who knows, maybe somebody out there actually does have the absolute, perfect suggestion. We just need to hear it and get peoples thoughts.

Fair point with people finding their own niches too. As I say, I do think that having people in one place would at least open up different possibilities a bit more... but I do see what you mean. After all, I'm not likely to be playing with the TA'ers, but at the same time, C-Mode is something I'd love to do, and maybe even Battle, if the server had enough people interested.

I've seen that Unity project before, and I sincerely wish it the best of luck. As you mention though, Sega can be pretty aggressive with protecting their games. I'm so glad I got the SoR:R when I did. I got it about a week before it was pulled. Honestly, it's the best SoR-type game I've ever played. That and by changing Max's leggings to match his skin colour, you get to play the game as Max in briefs. That always makes me happy. lol

Ceri0n - I'm thinking we're maybe getting to the point where we might have to agree to disagree a little. I'm probably not explaining myself as well as I might.

Like the Pokemon thing. The game is so much more varied than PSO, and there are many more strategies. There also comes a point where Stats don't matter quite so much. In PSO terms... I used to have a melee FOnewearl. Her weapon of choice was a %'d Vivienne. Despite her dreadful ATP, she could successfully one-combo pretty much any grunt in the game. I could even one-combo Indi Belras provided I HHH'd and got a couple of criticals. Most things though, a flat NHH would kill it without issue. The thing is, if you compared that to a HUmar killing a single grunt in a single combo... really, do the stats matter in that case? I was killing, one on one, just as quickly as anyone else despite my lower stats.

Pokemon has some similarities. It doesn't matter if I have 200 Attack or 2000 Attack if I can switch pokemon to exploit a weakness for a one hit kill, or lock the opponent down etc. There are always options and strategies which can be used to make unusual teams work.

It's kinda like Yugioh too. I used to play it at Uni with my friends. One friend was a bit up his own arse, thinking that he knew the game so well that he was untouchable. I sent out my first Monster; a LV1 normal monster. He destroyed it, I brought out another. He destroyed that, then mine started multiplying. He was still scoffing when I had 5 LV1 normal monsters on the field. After all, they're literally the weakest monsters in the game; what could they do?

He wasn't so happy when I destroyed every card on his field and his hand, and hit him for over 10,000 damage... and won.

I firmly believe that numbers aren't everything. As I say, maybe something we're just not going to see eye to eye with.

Anyhoo, as for the Arrest Raygun being high end... again, maybe a poor choice of words. I know of course that Arrest Laser, Arrest Needle, Arrest J-Cutter etc., all out-class it. I probably meant endgame. A HUmar will make very good use of Arrest Raygun on the likes of Dorphon, and doesn't particularly need the J-Cutter since it takes more effort to SNS to compensate for the low ATA, and he's comfortable with using Partisans or Swords for groups anyway. My point was that it was a weapon that any Ult player would be happy to have and would make good use of.

Anyway, I've been typing this on my phone for the past hour and a half. I think I'm going to get up and get my morning cup of tea. I feel like I need it now. lol

Edit - Spuz, I see you lurking.

Hi! ^_^
 
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Anyway, I've been typing this on my phone for the past hour and a half. I think I'm going to get up and get my morning cup of tea. I feel like I need it now. lol
I feel sorry for your thumbs ;) . So if I understand you correctly then it is the variety you miss instead of the rates being increased right? This means balancing weapons (but this can also mean balancing classes) to a certain extent. Way back in my noob days I thought that charge weapons were kind of 'abused'. It felt like SEGA's mistake to me. I pretty much just accepted the game now as it is and I'm glad I did. It would have been cool if a Final Impact had charge on it for example (got a 60 hitter lol) but doing so will divide the community even further. Even if the ideas were to work out in the practical sense you will have to take this consequence in consideration.
 
Everyone just come play cmode, it offers communism in a perfect way. You can still find your rare 95h weapons and rule the stage temporarily feeling stronger than others and being better equipped than others. Until the end of the stage, then you gotta do it again.

There's no grind and stages go from 10min to 60min, so you can always pick up a short game and there's always the much larger possibility to be endgame geared without needing 100s of hours of grinding!

It's also still 100% vanilla.

Problems solved.
 
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Ephinea replicates Sega PSOBB minus the horrible annoyances [shudders at the memory of EXP loss on death

There was a time we had it for a bit.

Those experimental days early on were kinda funny.
 
Theres also DMD's server. Contact him on facebook if you want to try it out. Actually, here. Don't get your hopes up it's pretty wild and a real ghost town :wacko:
 
The thing is, if the community is to come together, then realistically one server would have to cater to the varied interests and needs that the PSO community has.
The way the client's designed doesn't really allow for this, though. Monster and item stats are sent when you launch the game, and lots of values are hardcoded, so there's currently no such thing as per-ship gameplay rules. You're never going to be able to get servers to merge when they have such radically different approaches to the game that cannot coexist on both a philosophical and a technical level.

I suppose my key question in this is; genuinely, why has none of this ever been done? Why is there never even discussion about this sort of thing?
Many such attempts have been made already, as evidenced by the general trend of reduced droprates on most servers to compensate for the lack of players.

As for the lack of discussion, if you're passionate enough about PSO to start your own server, you probably also have strong opinions about how you think the game should be and don't need to ask for input regarding the direction your server is going to take. The general outlook of each admin tends to be, "I'm going to do this the way I want, and if other people like it, then that's great. If they don't, they can play somewhere else." The problem is there will always be some percentage of players who fall into the latter category, and the most opinionated among them will start their own competing servers, and the cycle of spreading out the playerbase continues. There's really no way to stop it, and even if it were possible, I don't know that it would be beneficial to do so, as having options ensures the maximum number of people possible continue to play PSO, even if they're not on the same server.
 
I think the proposal of a PD rate increase was more to address the problem of deflation. A secondary benefit would be to speed along gear progression at a reasonable rate. Pumping a bunch of Spheres into the economy temporarily alleviated this, but it would be nice if there was a way to generate reliable wealth instead of just going balls to the wall during events. Sadly, the rate increase was shot down spectacularly. This is because a bunch of people who know nothing about economics were asked to give their opinions on economics. I'm sorry if this sounds arrogant, but it's not an armchair sport.

I think that, going forward, the best solution would be to limit PS rewards to 1 per account per event and to increase the overall PD rate permanently. Or have a weekly boost that specifically focuses on PD rates. (Perhaps Lv. 200 characters could find increased PDs during the EXP boost weeks since the increased EXP doesn't do them any good?)

Also: This thread really should be in the Suggestions forum. Sorry to nitpick.

Anyway...

I already made several impassioned and very informed arguments against deflation and I was shut down by many community members. What would I know? I'm only a licensed financial advisor...I've given my two cents here and I'll leave it at that.

Edit: Okay, one last thing: If there is any concern about a PD rate increase allowing people to "finish" PSO too quickly: I've been playing consistently for 3 years and I have over a BILLION total EXP on this server. I have accumulated enough wealth to fully sphere ONE of my five characters' gear. (Well, four really, since FOnewm doesn't really need Spheres.) I don't think I'm in any danger of running out of things to do. It would be nice if it felt like I was moving a bit faster, though...

Edit 2: I read the preceding posts a bit more carefully. We should NOT further fragment the community with additional game modes. The PD rate increase should either apply to all modes, or none of them. It's possible to get too absurd with divisions.
 
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I think PD' rates need to be tweaked a little, but not too much, maybe like 5 percent or something?
 
I don't think 5 percent would be enough. PDs should drop 1.5 to 2x more often than they do. That way, it would still take well over 1000 hours to fully Sphere a character's gear but decrease the sheer Korean-style-MMO absurdness.
 
I think the proposal of a PD rate increase was more to address the problem of deflation. A secondary benefit would be to speed along gear progression at a reasonable rate. Pumping a bunch of Spheres into the economy temporarily alleviated this, but it would be nice if there was a way to generate reliable wealth instead of just going balls to the wall during events. Sadly, the rate increase was shot down spectacularly. This is because a bunch of people who know nothing about economics were asked to give their opinions on economics. I'm sorry if this sounds arrogant, but it's not an armchair sport.

I think that, going forward, the best solution would be to limit PS rewards to 1 per account per event and to increase the overall PD rate permanently. Or have a weekly boost that specifically focuses on PD rates. (Perhaps Lv. 200 characters could find increased PDs during the EXP boost weeks since the increased EXP doesn't do them any good?)

Also: This thread really should be in the Suggestions forum. Sorry to nitpick.

Anyway...

I already made several impassioned and very informed arguments against deflation and I was shut down by many community members. What would I know? I'm only a licensed financial advisor...I've given my two cents here and I'll leave it at that.

Edit: Okay, one last thing: If there is any concern about a PD rate increase allowing people to "finish" PSO too quickly: I've been playing consistently for 3 years and I have over a BILLION total EXP on this server. I have accumulated enough wealth to fully sphere ONE of my five characters' gear. (Well, four really, since FOnewm doesn't really need Spheres.) I don't think I'm in any danger of running out of things to do. It would be nice if it felt like I was moving a bit faster, though...

Edit 2: I read the preceding posts a bit more carefully. We should NOT further fragment the community with additional game modes. The PD rate increase should either apply to all modes, or none of them. It's possible to get too absurd with divisions.
Well said. Grinding PD's is a tough grind and that is no joke. You need to sell stuff as well if you are to Sphere the crap out of the weapons. Doubling the PD rate will probably cause some inflation (which to some degree is a good thing here actually) without having to go 'balls to the walls' (lol) during events for Spheres.

Whether I am for this is a whole other question (I'm quite conservative when it comes to PSO) but your arguments seem to be very well structured.
 
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