There is a dearth of quality FOs as of late

Discussion in 'General' started by Apotos, Sep 6, 2018.

  1. Apotos

    Apotos Member

    Having done several MAE, Fiasco, TTF, RT etc runs over the course of this event, many of the party FOs have been severely lacking. This is no witchhunt, no one will be named or marked or what have you. But the amount of times I've seen a Force prioritize swinging their double saber around, or using a Bringers Rifle on a standard enemy, shooting their Vulcans, using their DoB, or spamming techs that do nothing but disrupt others/spawn flow, all of this gets priority and you have to ask for them to debuff, as if it's some unknown, unreasonable demand that the party support...supports. Sometimes you will die, only to be revived by the FO, only to go on unbuffed until you ask for SD. The party may be low on HP and standing next to the Force, but they may see rapid firing Rabarta as a better idea than using Resta.

    Maybe these are new players, or long timers returning. No problem! I would like to put out a few pointers that will help you be loved even more by your party:

    -A Glide Divine should be in your hands at almost times. This useful rod is cheap at just one PD, and doubles your Jellen/Zalure (JZ) range.
    -When a new wave of enemies spawn, debuffing them is the first thing you should do. Zalure first is appreciated because it lets the others get a move on killing the enemies. Jellen may not even be needed if everyone is high enough level. Consider the levels of everyone. Don't want to? No problem! Just throw on JZ on every spawn as it helps no matter what.
    -Gal Gryphon, CCA's boss, is better left without Jellen being casted.
    -FOmars/FOnewms who aren't using Gifoie in Episode 4 should strongly consider using a Resta Merge. It doubles your healing range and is just 15 silver badges right now, very useful.
    -Melee Forces: do your thing with your Girasole, DoB, or Vivienne...but just please, not at the expense of everyone else. Just remember that your ATP that is probably not maxed, doesn't help nearly as much as a quick Zalure does, even if you think it does.
    -See a Zu causing a nuisance in Episode 4? A quick Razonde or Gifoie helps stop them from circling, shooting lasers or fireballs, and so on!
    -I'm sure you have been told to spam Rabarta as it helps. Yes, but also not yes! Wait for enemies to bunch up together. This allows slicer, shotgun, sword, needle, and partisan users to hit many enemies at once. See a clump of lizards in Episode 4? Let them come close together, then freeze them in place, so someone with an Excalibur can finish the job even better.
    -Be mindful of dead teammates and give them SD upon revival.


    To those of you who remember that you are there to support the party before anything else, you know who you are. Thank you for your service on the PSO battlefields. To all else, keep in mind these simple tips. Because if you aren't buffing or debuffing, why are you there...? When another Hunter or Ranger who has a ton more ATP/ATA can help the party much more than you can?
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
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  2. Cassie 9

    Cassie 9 Real Life Red Ring Rico Staff Member

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    Thanks for your input, but you don't need to worry about advising other players; there are already guides for this!
     
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  3. Roo

    Roo Lonely

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    I think a lot of people need this after the last "How to FO guide" mentioned you should spam rabarta constantly to freeze things and a lot of instances it really does mess up the people who know when and where to use their freeze traps/Froozer. Props to you for the friendly PSA.
     
  4. Apotos

    Apotos Member

    I am aware of said guides. But recently there has been an influx of completely terrible FOs who refuse to buff, debuff, or heal in favor of tech spam or doing low damage with a sword/gun. I personally think this needs to be on the front stage so to speak, in the general section. Because if there are 5-10 good FOs left on the server, why bother waiting or wanting one? Just have a HUnewearl or RAmarl who can give decent support and better damage, creating a better flow for the game.

    Thank you too, Roo. :)
     
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  5. CTB

    CTB JK hate paused, busy!

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    I disagree. With that part that says "as of late." Is, has been, will continue to be.

    In a way it is better than ever because techs don't automatically ruin the game (uuusually) but keep fighting the good fight!
     
  6. Ade

    Ade The Charlie Brown of PSO.

    Exceptions aside, I feel like Ephinea has struggled the most in the FO department as far as players are concerned. I realize there are rules against "telling people how to play" but this is what happens when rules about not offending anyone go too far. It chills constructive criticism.

    The fact that a moderator came in here and said that "you don't need to tell people how to play because we have guides," (or something to that effect) even when you explicitly stated that you weren't going to single anyone out, is proof positive that the "don't offend anyone" mentality has gone too far.

    This thread is asserting that, even with the wealth of information available, many FOs are playing very poorly.

    Now, to be completely fair and balanced:

    We do have a lot of newer players. A less-than-optimal HUmar, for example, isn't going to stick out as badly as a poor-performing FO because the HUmar doesn't really have an impact on everyone else (other than perhaps lowering the party's DPS a bit). A poorly performing FO is noticeable by everyone. Maybe time will fix this? I dunno.
     
  7. Doomseer

    Doomseer Member

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    Having good quality FOs starts with actually having people wanting to play FO and I'll tell you that it's no fun at all when you are being told how to play every 5 minutes. No other class gets hassled this much.

    1. Even with Jellen and Deband, our DFP is low enough due to merge that in large groups of enemies, we will very often be on the floor between every cast. When players are constantly dying and the FO needs to run around to heal, revive, rebuff, immobilise the enemies, while being smacked onto the floor every 2 seconds, sometimes you may need to cut us some slack on Shifta Deband.
    2. Sometimes Rabarta lands at a bad time and the enemy is locked in animation and untargetable. I'm aware of when to avoid casting so that this doesn't happen, but sometimes it just does. Sorry about that. However, if this happens more than once in a run, some players will really give us a hard time about it. This never happens when other classes accidentally lock mobs (eg. needle on goran).
    3. Dark Flow is a pain in the ass. We have to pick the exact moments when the user is out of range of the others. This means even fewer opportunities to heal and certainly no Resta Merge. Accidentally healing DF users is another source of our complaints, don't be surprised if some FOs just don't want to deal with it at all. Naturally, the increased numbers of deaths means more complaints about buffs not being recast quickly enough.
    4. Berserk meta. We often get parties with three other players emptying their HP bars as fast as possible. In Ep1 this isn't a problem but in Ep4 this usually means you are locked into spamming Resta, rapidly, constantly, at all times. In these situations, S/D/Z/J and Rabarta can be delayed and we don't like to keep hear complaints about it when we are hammering our keyboards to fuel your suicidal playstyle.

    This kind of attitude is really condescending and unhelpful. I mean who the fuck wants to play FO after reading this? It's like saying casts are there to trap before anything else, how dare they do damage if there are traps to place. Or that rangers are there to use Frozen Shooter/Spread Needle special before anything else, so there better not be any mobile enemies before they even think about switching weapons. Sure, it's great when it all falls into place and these things are helpful but I don't like the implication that FOs are just there to be everyone's bitch and put up with all their complaints too.

    I guess with this logic, just kick anyone who isn't lv200 Hucast. I mean, other classes are not entitled to do damage if they have less, right?

    Having more good players, means having more players. If you want more good FOs, you need more FOs.

    If you want more FOs, we need less nag threads like this, which take away all the fun and make playing FO feel like a fucking job. Believe me, we are really bored of seeing these threads. Instead of making them, how about picking up FO and being the change you want to see.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
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  8. Apotos

    Apotos Member

    All good points. As a FO player as well, I know what you mean on all 4 of these. Things that have a higher chance of knocking people down, like Goran Detonators, tend to get Jellen first just so it's not being stuck in a get hit > heal > get hit cycle. No one benefits from that.

    Not every Rabarta cast needs to be perfect! I am not saying that and know its unfeasible for all but the biggest of tryhards. DF and Berserk users have to be left on their own. I make an exception with Heaven Striker users however, as its special is fast and doesn't completely cut health away like a DoB or Vulcans would. Generally, they don't mind dying and (I would hope) understand the risk they are taking by walking around with 5hp. If a 3/4 way PB is in effect, keeping the party healed is a high priority.


    You are getting just a tad heated and I don't like to see that. Unless you are actually a bad FO and are self aware of it after this thread, there is no reason to think like this. There is plenty of FOs, since most games tend to have one. Their inability and what seems to be like refusal to support their party proper is the issue here. I think players like Stomper, Roo, and Silvia are the model FOs just to name a few, and there is plenty more. But a bad FO does nothing but waste a slot in the party. The main point I want to get across and maybe I missed it somewhere along the line is...if you choose to play a support class, don't pretend you are an offense class. Supporting skills come first, and then if anything is alive after the other 3 tear up the mobs, then go ahead and use that Girasole or Rambling May. It's a matter of common sense, all said and done.
     
  9. VENOM

    VENOM Your friendly neighborhood elitist.

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    I’ve been busy sorry man.
    I’ll return soon. Or maybe not, who knows? :oops:
    As you learn more about the game, you will realise forces can effectively support and melee. It’s not one or the other.
     
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  10. Knowl

    Knowl Member

    git gud bois
     
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  11. Spoon

    Spoon Ephineacon 2018 Survivor

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    HOW TO BE BEST FO

    STEP 1 - Delete RESTA from your life
    STEP 2 - Carry 10 (ten) STAR ATOMIZER iten at all times
    STEP 3 - Other players will GIT GUD once they realize they are only eligible for up to 10 (ten) heals from the FO per round
    STEP 4 - Optimal play ensues
     
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  12. Yuffie

    Yuffie Member

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    I fear the forces who should read this and change their playstyle probably won't take notice from this (if they would care about how to play their class they wouldn't do so bad Oo). It's the special role that a force has to fulfill that causes this topic and I think helpful critic about playing a fo shouldn't been taken to heart, for myself I'm trying to do the necessary support as fast as I can , caring about crowd control and doing as much dmg as I can when I don't have to support/cc. All I ever get is maybe a SD symbol art (and that is already a very rare happening , add-ons ftw xD) but I can't remember being criticized serious. For critic you have to consider, did I act wrong in that situation or might happened something like bad position next to the spawn and get an instant knockdown which couldn't be avoided causing delayed debuff etc.
    I'm sure most of the players judge fair and notice if the fo tries his/her best or is behaving ugghh
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
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  13. Doomseer

    Doomseer Member

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    +1. This is why we shouldn't be judging and telling FOs what to do. It's extremely annoying when you are already battling against constant knockdown to be hassled in chat as well. Unfortunately this happened to me far too often.
     
  14. DiZzy

    DiZzy Last name Ever, First name Worst

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    s/d/z sometimes j and resta is you feel like it(everyone can have 10mono,di,trimates so look after yourself if you feel the force isn't healing enough) if you're DFing in public with uncoordinated play well, that's on you. Everything else is just icing on the cake. Sure spamming rabarta more than necessary or on the wrong spawns can be annoying for grouping enemies but so can be the cast who doesn't trap shoot or even use their traps.
    If you're in public lower your expectations. The majority of our server population is new players/players who've had very little exposure to high level play if they want to get better they will seek out the information they need from other players. Despite the guides and resources that are out there PSO is still pretty much a word of mouth game for information and if it's still bothering you to the point where you can't deal with it then avoid or simply blacklist. If you want that higher level of play then try to find others with a similar mindset and group up.
    Every online game ever is gonna have players who want to play efficiently and those who want to just play "casually"(for lack of a better word). Just the way it is and no amount of forum or discord posts is gonna change that. Laugh at the silly deaths that may occur because of someone else or take a look to see if there was something else you could of done to help yourself instead.

    ok I've used up all my wholesome points for the day. Nice playing with you>everybody
     
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  15. Harborer of Hope

    Harborer of Hope That Others May Live! Staff Member

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    You won't get this kinda slacking from ANY of MEW'S 'Plushies!!' dammit! <3!
     
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  16. Arsuru

    Arsuru 迷子

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    Tl;dr: Forces are actually pretty advanced and there is a lot to keep track of. There are rightfully a lot of expectations of a Force and it's very easy to simply overlook something amidst the chaos but it's not all on them either. Also DF, DoB, and HS aren't some elitist tools.

    As a FO main I am well aware of a lot of these supposed issues. I think a lot of the problem is that there is a much larger difference in how a Force plays solo versus how they play in a party compared to other classes, and the most important thing a Force needs to be able to do, is adapt to the party or specific situation, because PSO is a cooperative game. The same can be said of all classes, but due to the way PSO is, Forces get hit the hardest.

    And because of that, I suspect a lot of Force players are struggling to feel "useful" outside of pure support when things are getting mowed down so quickly, so they try to do anything else that they possibly can, even if nothing else may be needed, and can even be a hindrance.

    There are a lot of things a Force needs to be aware of. Sega wasn't exactly wrong in saying they are for "advanced players". Sure it is easy to just support, but beyond that one has to remember resistances, be incredibly aware of enemy A.I., how much fixed damage attacks do, be aware of what other players should be capable of and what to do if they in fact aren't capable and then adjusting playstyle considerably, even if that means doing something you would normally never do. How many of you would actually know when it would be a good idea to keep up Gifoie in Seabed?

    Other classes can typically just power through anything, but the effects of an unskilled Force are felt a lot harder.

    But it isn't all on the Force. Other players should ideally be ensuring the Force comes to no harm. If the Force is getting floored all of the time there might be other issues than them not casting Jellen. On the subject of Jellen, people seem to forget it exists and will often make the difference between someone surviving with low-health or not, especially in the absence of some sort of control such as traps and Arrest.

    If I am sitting there and casting Gifoie in MAE Forest, for example, why don't the other players prioritize the Barbles in a mixed spawn since they take 0 damage from Foie? If someone else is capable of debuffing they surely are welcome so that the Force doesn't have to stop casting Gifoie when they don't need to. If I am getting hit then maybe I will use mates to reduce the downtime between casts. People can also certainly sometimes have unrealistic expectations of the Force and forget that they are also capable of supporting, especially when that Ill Gill spawn gets out of control and the poorly-equipped RAmar forgets that he too, can Rabarta.

    It may seem silly to some Forces to carry mates when they can just Resta, but Resta is slow among other things. I carry Star Atmoizers just in case. Obviously it interferes with Dark Flow, but also mag triggers (and that is more advanced anyway). There are healing items in the game and frankly there is no reason to expect the Force to heal you. Even if we forget about Dark Flow, the Force can be doing so many other things. One only needs enough HP to survive being hit. It isn't often helpful of the Force to drop all of their other duties in an effort to keep everyone's health at 100%, especially if people are going to keep using Berserk.

    This is kind of minor, but Glide it not even needed in a large amount of situations. It probably gets used more often than it needs to be, but it's better to use it if one is unsure. Mostly, you only need it for large rooms, spread-out spawns, Tower, and E4. The natural range is sufficient for the majority of spawns.

    It's possible to heal only yourself with Resta, if you buffer it from the quick menu while doing pretty much any animation. Attacking, getting up from being knocked over, or even emotes. This is not exactly intuitive, but mates exist. That's not to place expectations upon anyone, but know there are options. You do not have to choose your moments if people don't expect the Force to heal, which we could view as selfish.
    Meseta may be cheap but not every weapon type has charge and in a lot of cases options with Berserk are just stronger, which means it is faster, and that generally benefits everyone. I really would not blame someone for not wanting to drain all of their meseta. The cost of mates is nothing in comparison. One one hand people should be mindful of when it might not be a good idea to Berserk, but it's a bit short-sighted to call it suicidal. Isn't it equally as selfish to spam Resta when someone specifically says that they don't need it? This goes back to Forces actually being kind of advanced and needing to be able to adapt. Jellen might be more useful than Resta in the absence of traps or Arrest, or even casting some other tech even if all it does is interrupt the enemy. Someone is always going to die, Berserk or not. Just res, rebuff, and carry on.

    You should obviously have no expectations in public games. I know very well how demanding it can be for a Force. At the same time everyone should check their Ego at the door. Against common recommendation, I did use DF a lot in public games during the event. It was certainly interesting. For the most part I had no problems. I can easily use Charge instead and it doesn't really bother me. The funniest thing is that I had other people telling the Force not to Resta me.

    But some people should consider that maybe some people just think DF is fun and aren't necessarily trying to break records and be obnoxious. It just happens that it is faster in a lot of cases. If I am going to Berserk anyway I may as well try to DF. It doesn't matter what class you are, it's worth avoiding damage. If Berserk Arms were as easy to get as Charge, would be shame RAs more often? If it makes you uncomfortable you can always state that instead of spamming Resta aggressively to the point that I actually consider muting the game. If I can politely explain that I don't need to be healed, and even point out that it's perfectly fine if you need to heal yourself or others, you can politely explain that you aren't comfortable dealing with DF or Berserk and people can manage.

    Communication would probably solve a lot of these issues. It's unrealistic to expect everyone to be able to always play together exactly as they desire, but actively going out of ones way to prevent others from having fun is generally just a shitty thing to do.

    I've been here long enough. I still have Spheres to get.
     
  17. honeydrew

    honeydrew Mom

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    theres at least one wrong way to play every class. i've seen plenty more HUmars using a stag cutlery in front of a gibbles than ive seen forces who refuse to cast shifta/zal.

    try to give them some tips or blacklist. this is not worthy of a thread
     
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  18. shadow_FIX

    shadow_FIX ephinea music instructor

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    if your party is failing, carry harder. carrying is fun.
     
  19. Ade

    Ade The Charlie Brown of PSO.

    This is too worthy of a thread. I see a lot of people needlessly getting defensive.

    FO is more complicated than playing HU / RA? I guess in theory...I always find my FO runs to be the easiest because there's so much less specific targeting I have to do.

    J/Z: Enemy just has to be in the radius
    Resta: Player just has to be in the radius
    Razonde: Doesn't need to aim
    Gifoie: Doesn't need to aim
    Rafoie: Just needs one anchor target
    Shifta / Deband: Player just has to be in a radius
    Demons with Fanatic: You have a huge leeway with this because of the positioning required

    Demons with Bringer's Rifle requires some good aim, but prettymuch everything else a FO does is easy street. I have to "try" way harder to play effectively as a HUcast than as a FO.

    The reason we're "telling FOs how to play" is that, for the most part, nobody has to say to a HUcast: "Go kill that monster, Hunter." It's a given. One badly played HU has far less of an impact than a badly played FO. FOs beyond Lv. 150 who don't understand the importance of debuffs before melee have no recourse.

    Again, this "don't tell people how to play the game" mentality has gone too far. I think we can all agree on the following in MOST games where we aren't just screwing around:

    1. Most people want to keep their character alive.
    2. Most people want to proceed effectively and without frustration.

    Assuming we all agree on these things, then there are OBJECTIVELY better and WORSE ways to play the game, and criticism in relation to the items above can be warranted as long as it's not berating.

    Edit: Carrying can be fun. I've had MAE runs where I've probably killed over 90% of the monsters myself. xD

    Edit 2: The complaint about getting knocked down too frequently is bunk. Assuming you're not punching way above your weight (ie. trying to run Ep. 2 / 4 at Lv. 85 unless maybe you already have maxed out materials / mag), then regular grunt enemies with Jellen 30 and Deband 30 should not be knocking you down. If they are, you need to check your build.

    If you're running around in Crater with a max HP of 500 and Dorphon charge does 720 set damage, you shouldn't be there.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
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  20. Cassie 9

    Cassie 9 Real Life Red Ring Rico Staff Member

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    Ahh, maybe there's some truth there! I was surprised people were getting upset about this post actually. The man's tips aren't wrong.

    Sorry if it sounded disrespectful, Apotos :oops:
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
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