Tagging Experience

[MelloMoka]

I went through to see if this had already been posted in this forum. I wasn't sure whether or not to bump a year old thread, so I'll link it here. If it's poor etiquette, perhaps mods could move this: https://www.pioneer2.net/community/threads/removing-the-need-to-tag-enemies-for-experience.5939/

tl;dr: Tagging is a terrible mechanic. It discourages certain playstyles, classes, and above all new players. It surprises me how the community could be against improving accessibility at virtually no cost to veteran players.

I've been trying to get my friend into this game and they have been severely struggling specifically because of the tagging mechanic. It punishes weaker players and favors specific classes. We play the game entirely together but the difference between her experience and mine continues to grow because I can often kill things before she even gets to them or she is forced to heal/support during fights rather before getting an opportunity to tag anything.

The accessibility in this game is abysmal for newer players. People have told us multiple times that the game does not even start until lvl80, some even say 120, and grinding it out is a horrible task. It's detrimental to hold players back longer from getting to a point where they can even begin to have fun with the game.

Every RPG that I know of uses party experience in some way, shape, or form. The idea this game even had such a system to begin with is appalling really. There's no reason why a player who prefers to support her party through heals and buffs over racing to spam rafoie on every mob shouldn't be compensated experience. I understand you get xp from monsters from debuffing them too, but the ability to do this (lvl, range, cast time) does not become available until later, further pushing new players out.

Players already spam TTF to grind lvls so they can get to a point to enjoy the game. The process is arduous. As far as I can tell, remodeling experience mechanics only serves to improve accessibility for newer players at "no" cost to veterans. I would go as far as to say that "leeching" in and of itself it not a problem despite its pretenses. But without delving into it, I would say its no where near as important as growing and maintaining a playerbase.

 

[Cookie]

Yeah we should totally have a Cheerleader character class.

On a side note: Have you ever thought about holding back until your friend has tagged the enemies? Cause that's what friends would do, right?

 

[MelloMoka]

Yeah we should totally have a Cheerleader character class.

On a side note: Have you ever thought about holding back until your friend has tagged the enemies? Cause that's what friends would do, right?

I do. But it becomes increasingly difficult the more enemies are on screen. Pretty tough decision to make when I either need to burn through Dorphons that could run through us both or let entire mobs surround us waiting for an entire party to tag.

Regardless, your point is based on poor premise. You're suggesting that a player handicap themselves to make up for a bad in-game mechanic. The purpose of this suggestion isn't to strawman a work-around. It's to implement an all-encompassing solution to improve everyone's experience.

 

[Cookie]

You've already played on DC right? And your friend is completely new to the game? Sorry, but maybe your friend would be better off to play with people who are new to the game as well or people who are willing to slow down and help her to actually get better.

 

[Koko]

You've already played on DC right? And your friend is completely new to the game? Sorry, but maybe your friend would be better off to play with people who are new to the game as well or people who are willing to slow down and help her to actually get better.

That is irrelevant. Even though he has played the game in the past, we both came in here starting brand new off the bat, no characters, no gear, nothing. He is able to kill things faster than me because he does twice the damage than I do and I get stuck with healing him all the time because he is a HUcast. We literately get 2 hit at level 100 between VeryHard and Ultimate (if not 1shot), so inbetween I get a heal off and then immediately back on the ground, rinse and repeat. So where do I get to hit enemies for tagging inbetween me being knocked down and running around trying to heal both of us before he or I take another hit and die. Most of the time, I am sitting here spamming heals because we both die in two hits. Also, If it wasn't for him, I wouldn't even bother with this game because it simple doesn't hold up to modern day MMOs. The fact I am getting held back from actually getting into the good stuff of the game is very discouraging and I am the type of person that drops shit when its not worth my time. But it seems like the core people that play this like themselves because they could care less about new people joining in with them.

FYI, the gear and stuff I do have now was all handed to me because of really great and friendly people who want to help and I assume keep new players interested. And I still can't farm that stuff for myself.

Edit: Honestly, seeing a comment like this discourages me even wanting to get into a community like this. You sound full of yourself.

 

[MelloMoka]

You've already played on DC right? And your friend is completely new to the game? Sorry, but maybe your friend would be better off to play with people who are new to the game as well or people who are willing to slow down and help her to actually get better.

It would be nice if there were more new people for her to play with right? Wish we had better mechanics that incentivize that.

But again, that's a irrelevant. Proper game design should allow for regular players to be able to introduce others to the game. That's how games grow, through referrals and a helpful community. Not to mention you're being ignorant (or forgetful if you're just a veteran) to how the game actually plays out. Waiting to tag everything in a room full of mobs is difficult when things are kicking you're ass. Further in a full party of 4, it's downright difficult period when plenty of things can be killed quickly.

 

[anime]

Hmm, I think Ephinea was a very different server the first time this was brought up.... a looooong time ago.
In light of most veteran players being at DEEP ENDGAME now, there's a very wide gap between being new to ult and 1shotting or combo-killing everything. Judging from the recent server changes, I think this would be a welcome change.

Giv Ultimate mode at 70 too, thankz. n.n

 

[DiZzy]

It would give PSO a more modern feel with some type of exp share implemented. Even at a reduced rate. It really is a detrimental system that pretty much forces you to play a certain way in order to get the tag otherwise you stuck even longer in the already tiresome normal-ult grind. People want to play with their friends and play the way they feel comfortable at the game and thats what PSO is really about HAVING FUN.

I may of even been against this in the past(can't remember tbh) but after playing here for over 2 years it just makes more and more sense as it gives a more beginner friendly experience for someone just starting fresh out here.

 

[Eva]

yeah, insulting ephinea's staff is definitely the best way to get your suggestion implemented.

personally i would see tagging removal as a QoL increase for new players, especially in the easier difficulties, but the two of you are making it pretty hard to agree with you.

 

[MelloMoka]

yeah, insulting ephinea's staff is definitely the best way to get your suggestion implemented.

personally i would see tagging removal as a QoL increase for new players, especially in the easier difficulties, but the two of you are making it pretty hard to agree with you.

If your post is targeted at me, I was aiming my thoughts at Sega's staff actually and how so many QoL things have somehow slipped through the cracks over the years. No, I think the Ephinea staff is amazing. I've had encounters with plenty of them and they're doing a good job implementing things I didn't even know were possible. Being able to change sec id's alone blew my mind when I first logged in.

 

[Roo]

Hmmmm I think if your friend is a support class (any force) or even a class with support capabilities (ramarl, hunewearl), the best way to tag would be with the support debuffs (zalure and jellen).

On another note, I'm all for a change that would make it to where tagging isn't necessary.

 

[Koko]

I keep getting the response of people afraid of "leeching" with such changes and I have to say to that, what the heck is the difference from someone carrying me through TTF a billion times with just one hitting the bosses for exp?

I want to play through the game doing stuff together with my friend without falling further and further behind and feeling weaker and weaker. I can admit that targeting things with ranged weapons is more of a challenge to me than others but it's a class I am more into and motivated towards than melee type classes. I just can't get behind classes I just don't care for.

If someone can argue me that such a change is bad, I would like to see their points.

 

[Koko]

I'm not going to sit here and promote a way to get experience for not doing anything. I just feel, me having to spam heal on my teammates should count for experience gained by whoever was hit with heal to whatever enemies they have killed. Which means, I also need to be actively moving around with team and doing stuff to be apart of growing my character. As long as I either have casted on my team or on enemy during the enemies life duration.

Also, most people tell me experience doesn't really matter later on anyways, this will just help lower levels catch up with the real stuff of the game sooner so I don't spend days grinding TTF.

 

[TaoChaos]

Most of the time, I am sitting here spamming heals because we both die in two hits.

It sounds like you are a Force? Or at least you have some techs at your disposal. One nice thing about the "tagging" system is that debuffing counts as a "hit", so if you run around casting jellen the enemies won't be able to kill you as fast, and you get the exp.
Now, what sucks is that you get more experience for killing the enemy than tagging. That essentially screws the support classes, since in Ultimate I don't think you can 1-hit KO anything with techs. You will always be behind your buddy in levels. It's a turn mechanic, but it is what it is. Now, the flipside is that as a support character, you are always desirable in a party because as savage as a HUcast is, slap a coat of shifta/deband and he becomes god.

 

[TaoChaos]

I'm not going to sit here and promote a way to get experience for not doing anything.

If I may ask, what character did you pick?

 

[TaoChaos]

I was aiming my thoughts at Sega's staff actually and how so many QoL things have somehow slipped through the cracks over the years.

They probably were making some kind of heavy handed prediction about the future. Like, "one day, male robots will rule the world, and it will be our job to be their weak little slaves"

 

[MelloMoka]

Hmmmm I think if your friend is a support class (any force) or even a class with support capabilities (ramarl, hunewearl), the best way to tag would be with the support debuffs (zalure and jellen).

On another note, I'm all for a change that would make it to where tagging isn't necessary.

Yea, she's building a FOnewearl.

If I may ask, what character did you pick?

We made her a FOney in the beginning since she likes supp chars, but as I'm sure you know FOs for a fresh account is rough dice. So we her a RAmarl. We've recently gone back now that we've gotten some equips and outside help from teams to lvl her FO again.

 

[TaoChaos]

Yea, she's building a FOnewearl.

We made her a FOney in the beginning since she likes supp chars, but as I'm sure you know FOs for a fresh account is rough dice. So we her a RAmarl. We've recently gone back now that we've gotten some equips and outside help from teams to lvl her FO again.

Yeah a fresh FO is monster bait.
One tactic my friend and I used to use (when I was FOney and he was RAmar), I ran in first and wrangled baddies by popping up my mini menu and running circles until they were in a nice ball, he popped the first shot to stun, and then we went to town on them. Slower game play, but amusing.
(Always funny when I ran ahead and he would see me marathon running on the mini map)

 

[DiZzy]

I keep getting the response of people afraid of "leeching" with such changes and I have to say to that, what the heck is the difference from someone carrying me through TTF a billion times with just one hitting the bosses for exp?

That or having a FO nuke Max Attack S episode 4 for you while you just run around and trap(as a cast) or cast an AOE spell(non cast) to tag stuff for free exp.

 

[CTB]

yeah, insulting ephinea's staff is definitely the best way to get your suggestion implemented.

personally i would see tagging removal as a QoL increase for new players, especially in the easier difficulties, but the two of you are making it pretty hard to agree with you.

Cookie made a shit post and got called out on it, no biggie. Most tagging changes sound logical, and the last thread reached this conclusion too if I'm not mistaken (or maybe that was the proposed EXP curve change...) As long as there is some sort of radius and perhaps a cap, it makes sense. I think it is unlikely since PSO is ultimately a grind regardless but hey, to hoping!