"High stress" gameplay and solutions.

[Ade]

I think another way to put it is that, in the old ways, I had a comfortable enough understanding of the game that I could pretty well mentally "check out" and play it on auto-pilot while talking to friends on Discord about video games or pizza or whatever cool shit we wanted to talk about, and now I feel like I have to focus on the gameplay a lot more because I'm not getting traditional support any longer. I'm perfectly okay to play like this SOMETIMES, but I feel like it's happening more in normal play than it used to, and I'm not happy with that. It is OKAY to feel this way.

Yes, I don't play this game to be some great player. I gave up on that years ago and people mock me or say I'm an average player or whatever (they're just trying to goad me into being more competitive but I don't want to). What really turned me off to that is I tried some Time Attack and someone beat my time right away and made fun of me (this was back on Scht), so I've had a bad impression of that playstyle ever since.

I'm okay with being whatever was considered a good player by 2007 standards. I'm old fashioned and not flashy, but it gets the job done. I might not be the fastest ship in the fleet, but I complete my objectives, even if it means running 4220 PW4 2F resets to get it done. That's just who I am.

 

[Knowl]

'high stress' gameplay isn't inherently a problem because you don't like it, i'm afraid. to go back to Bloodborne, plenty of people think it's one of the greatest games ever made, not just in spite of the sometimes ridiculous difficulty but because of it. just because it's too hard for you doesn't make it too hard.

plenty of people enjoy the DF meta and the challenges it brings, and i don't really see any reason to change the game on this basis. find people who want to play like you, and play with them. this is not a balance issue.

 

[Ade]

'high stress' gameplay isn't inherently a problem because you don't like it, i'm afraid. to go back to Bloodborne, plenty of people think it's one of the greatest games ever made, not just in spite of the sometimes ridiculous difficulty but because of it. just because it's too hard for you doesn't make it too hard.

plenty of people enjoy the DF meta and the challenges it brings, and i don't really see any reason to change the game on this basis. find people who want to play like you, and play with them. this is not a balance issue.

Bloodborne IS a great game. I just didn't need to put myself through NG+ but I did it anyway. That's what made me start questioning why I was doing that.

Edit: You guys are really pissing me off with this "just because it's too hard for you." I DID beat the damn game on NG+. I CAN play games this way. I just don't like doing it anymore. Jesus Christ.

Anecdote: I had a friend agree to ask a girl out one time because we were drunk at a bar and he said he would only ask her out if I could do an entire run through the original Super Mario Bros on a coin op machine on one quarter, World 1-1 to 8-4, with no warping. I died ONCE and I was trashed. I even pulled off the infinite 1-Up Trick in World 3-1. I beat Bowser and he asked her out. He's married to that woman now and has a daughter he loves very much. I am an old school gamer. I have nothing to prove to anyone. I'm sick of this bullshit insinuating that because I don't want every waking second of my game experience to be some white knuckle challenge that I'm not a real gamer.

End edit.

If one item in a game (of hundreds) completely changes the way the game is played and DECREASES OPTIONS for everyone else, it is DEFINITELY a balance issue. That's the VERY DEFINITION of a balance issue.

This would be like saying Meta Knight in vanilla Smash Bros Brawl (and arguably the entire reason they made Project M) isn't a balance issue. That's ridiculous.

 

[Ryan]

Meta Knight was broken because he had favorable matchups against literally every character in the game, making other characters completely obsolete. As I've already said, in 100% efficient tryhard TA gameplay, there are other weapons that will deal with certain spawns faster than DF (Berserk Raygun and L&K38, to restate the two I already mentioned, and others!), and that's only in gotta-go-fast gameplay. For your average run, everyone spamming FTs, CVulcs, and the occasional Arrest/Demon's weapon will clear literally everything.

I'd like to point out that you've mentioned "decreasing options" multiple times as a point against DF usage, but you seem to overlook that you've already decreased your own options by refusing to restock on Di/Trimates once every run or two.

 

[Knowl]

comparing a character in a fighting game to an endgame item in an RPG is pretty inaccurate i'm afraid. one is busted from hour 0, while the other is locked behind a whole game. where your comparison is accurate, though, is that meta knight only had real implications for the competitive smash community, much like how DF only has real implications for people playing at the endgame of PSO, and even then only those who are interested in going fast, and even then it doesn't render other weapons completely obsolete in the same way meta knight does.

if you're just chillin with the boys, meta knight being OP doesn't make a blind bit of difference. go chill with the boys. i get it, though - you actually do want to go full tryhard, you just don't like the current meta. making a massive post about shaping the meta to fit your playstyle isn't the solution you're looking for though, chap.

 

[Ade]

Meta Knight was broken because he had favorable matchups against literally every character in the game, making other characters completely obsolete. As I've already said, in 100% efficient tryhard TA gameplay, there are other weapons that will deal with certain spawns faster than DF (Berserk Raygun and L&K38, to restate the two I already mentioned, and others!), and that's only in gotta-go-fast gameplay. For your average run, everyone spamming FTs, CVulcs, and the occasional Arrest/Demon's weapon will clear literally everything.

I'd like to point out that you've mentioned "decreasing options" multiple times as a point against DF usage, but you seem to overlook that you've already decreased your own options by refusing to restock on Di/Trimates once every run or two.

I DON'T REFUSE TO RESTOCK. I JUST DON'T LIKE PLAYING THE GAME THIS WAY. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Options are decreased in terms of "on the field in Ragol" for non HU classes as a result of the proliferation of DF gameplay. This is NOT an incorrect statement. Stop twisting words.

 

[Ade]

comparing a character in a fighting game to an endgame item in an RPG is pretty inaccurate i'm afraid. one is busted from hour 0, while the other is locked behind a whole game. where your comparison is accurate, though, is that meta knight only had real implications for the competitive smash community, much like how DF only has real implications for people playing at the endgame of PSO, and even then only those who are interested in going fast, and even then it doesn't render other weapons completely obsolete in the same way meta knight does.

if you're just chillin with the boys, meta knight being OP doesn't make a blind bit of difference. go chill with the boys. i get it, though - you actually do want to go full tryhard, you just don't like the current meta. making a massive post about shaping the meta to fit your playstyle isn't the solution you're looking for though, chap.

Incorrect. I am upset that the meta is spilling over into general gamplay and making it more restrictive to everyone else. You completely. Missed. The. Point.

Unless YOU'RE the HU actually using the DF (meaning that everyone has to bend to your wishes) you are now having to give up other benefits just so they can use their one weapon. This is not good.

 

[Ryan]

I DON'T REFUSE TO RESTOCK. I JUST DON'T LIKE PLAYING THE GAME THIS WAY. Stop putting words in my mouth.

You're right, my bad. You don't outright refuse, you just complain that you're being "forced" to play a way that you don't like to play, despite the game clearly intending casts to use mates. That's a direct, intentional consequence of them being unable to cast techniques. It's how the game was designed. You wanting to play a certain way doesn't mean the game and the community should bend to your will.

See what I did there?

 

[Ade]

You're right, my bad. You don't outright refuse, you just complain that you're being "forced" to play a way that you don't like to play, despite the game clearly intending casts to use mates. That's a direct, intentional consequence of them being unable to cast techniques. It's how the game was designed. You wanting to play a certain way doesn't mean the game and the community should bend to your will.

See what I did there?

Yep. But you left out the part where casts are supposed to be able to be the recipient of Resta in party play, and that an INDETERMINATE NUMBER (but a significant number- since you're so insistent that the number is smaller than what I think) of parties are being populated by DF using Hunters who don't want Resta, which DECREASES OPTIONS for non-DF users.

Asking for an option to be added so that DF users can ignore healing would 100% fix this issue. It would be best if the option can only be toggled on or off in the lobby so that it can't be abused. It would not make the game any easier. (Or barely.) It would just make it less restrictive.

@Knowl : I am not asking for the meta to be changed. I don't want to go near any of that with a 30 foot pole. I want the squeeze being put on non-DF users BY DF users to stop. And it's happening now in a high enough percentage of PUBLIC GAMES that it's negatively impacting my enjoyment of the game. Several others in this thread have expressed similar concerns (they're drowned out by all the people who are deliberately misunderstanding what I'm sasying), but they're there.

To put the ball back in your court: Why wouldn't you want something like this? Do you think it's GOOD that people are being bossed around? Maybe this server is just full of bullies.

(Before you say that I'm bossing people around by doing this, remember that the change I'm suggesting would allow EVERYONE TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT; as I've already debunked that bullshit a hundred times in this thread.)

 

[Knowl]

Incorrect. I am upset that the meta is spilling over into general gamplay and making it more restrictive to everyone else. You completely. Missed. The. Point.

Unless YOU'RE the HU actually using the DF (meaning that everyone has to bend to your wishes) you are now having to give up other benefits just so they can use their one weapon. This is not good.

i'm not missing the point at all. you don't have to do anything for the DF user, if you're not trying to play the meta. stop being so rude to me for challenging your points.

 

[Ade]

i'm not missing the point at all. you don't have to do anything for the DF user, if you're not trying to play the meta. stop being so rude to me for challenging your points.

Yes. And I intend to basically tell people to F Off is they say "no resta plz" or leave the game if the FO won't even do bare minimum healing. I'm sick of playing that way.

What I'm trying to say is this solution is LESS THAN IDEAL and we have other options. That's all.

Edit: I'm not trying to be rude. You just have a habit of always disagreeing with me so I've come to really dislike you, LOL. (Just being honest.) Perhaps I should rethink that.

 

[Ryan]

You're completely missing the point. You set arbitrary limits and restrictions on yourself because you have preconceived notions about how a game should be played - you stated as much in the OP - and you then proceed to complain about arbitrary limits and restrictions that other people play by. You've ignored countless good points in this thread from No Hit, Zen, and Cameron, in favor of arguing against both their and others' easier-to-attack stances.

I’ve seen you be far more bullish in pubs than any hucast i know.

Almost everything I do is to help people in extremely specific instances.

"Me directing people to play better is good, other people directing people to play better is bad" is not a valid argument, man.

 

[Ade]

You're completely missing the point. You set arbitrary limits and restrictions on yourself because you have preconceived notions about how a game should be played - you stated as much in the OP - and you then proceed to complain about arbitrary limits and restrictions that other people play by. You've ignored countless good points in this thread from No Hit, Zen, and Cameron, in favor of arguing against both their and others' easier-to-attack stances.



"Me directing people to play better is good, other people directing people to play better is bad" is not a valid argument, man.

Me telling someone once during a 20 minute run "hey stand here" is way different than "no resta for anyone this entire run because I have to use my big sword."

I've been trying to acknowledge as many points as possible. This is one versus 9709260 so I'm doing the best I can.

@Ryan I'm glad you think the unit /command is a good idea.

Do you know another awesome point: Party leaders could ASK OTHER PEOPLE not to use that unit / command if they really wanted to have the added difficulty of having to play around DF users. (Why anyone would find this enjoyable in a public game is beyond me.) So there's ZERO net loss here. Just an increased choice.

Anytime this server has increased choices (ie. adding all quests to 1p Mode) a few people cry foul and say "but vanilla!" and everyone else is happy and wants to PLAY THE GAME MORE. The most recent example is the Ep. 1 drop chart update. We went from ABSOLUTELY ZERO viable hunts in Mines (save for S Reds Blade) to several. It's nice to have a reason to visit all areas in the game. A few people got upset and then everyone else was happy. Episode 1 became a lot less useless. Most people came around. Win / win / win.

 

[No Hit]

Do you think it's GOOD that people are being bossed around? Maybe this server is just full of bullies.

Really don't think anyone's being bossed around. When I ask for no resta, it's a suggestion not a command. There's no bullying really. You just aren't happy with the way others choose to play in your games, simple as that. As everyone has already told you, play with people who you like playing with. For now you'll complain about the lack of resta, but after that you'll just move onto something else that you don't like. Changing fundamental gameplay to temporarily appease you doesn't seem like a sound solution to me.

 

[Ryan]

Win / win / win.

Yep. It's almost like we heavily consider ideas to change things around here, and some changes are good and others are bad. Novel concept.

Me telling someone once during a 20 minute run "hey stand here" is way different than "no resta for anyone this entire run because I have to use my big sword."

and as i’ve said countless times, no one is saying don’t resta for the whole game in pubs.

 

[Knowl]

Edit: I'm not trying to be rude. You just have a habit of always disagreeing with me so I've come to really dislike you, LOL. (Just being honest.) Perhaps I should rethink that.

i couldn't care less what the fuck you think of me. your ideas need to be challenged because they so regularly turn out to be self-serving, short-sighted garbage, as I hope this thread has demonstrated to you for the umpteenth time. people aren't deliberately misunderstanding you, people aren't dogpiling you, people aren't out to get you because you're you. there's merit in the vast majority of the posts here challenging your points, and you'd do well to stop typing and start reading.

 

[Ade]

Really don't think anyone's being bossed around. When I ask for no resta, it's a suggestion not a command. There's no bullying really. You just aren't happy with the way others choose to play in your games, simple as that. As everyone has already told you, play with people who you like playing with. For now you'll complain about the lack of resta, but after that you'll just move onto something else that you don't like. Changing fundamental gameplay to temporarily appease you doesn't seem like a sound solution to me.

That's a pretty severe over-simplification of a much more complicated issue.

Being unhappy with how general party play is shifting is one thing. Being unhappy about it because it's all being caused by ONE piece of equipment is another. Should one item really change the dynamics of this game this much? Is it unreasonable to have a counter-balance to that?

Ignoring healing will simply "make the game easier." There may be times where that person WANTS a heal. This is why it's important that we counter-balance the command so it can only be toggled on / off in the lobby. There's a cost to use it: You can't get any heals while you're in THAT game. Period.

 

[Ade]

i couldn't care less what the fuck you think of me. your ideas need to be challenged because they so regularly turn out to be self-serving, short-sighted garbage, as I hope this thread has demonstrated to you for the umpteenth time. people aren't deliberately misunderstanding you, people aren't dogpiling you, people aren't out to get you because you're you. there's merit in the vast majority of the posts here challenging your points, and you'd do well to stop typing and start reading.

You said absolutely nothing pertaining to anything here. I have addressed as many points as I can.

 

[Ryan]

Just clarifying - if/when Negate/Heal is implemented, it will be a unit, not a command. This has been discussed in detail in private and won't be changed.

 

[Ade]

Just clarifying - if/when Negate/Heal is implemented, it will be a unit, not a command. This has been discussed in detail in private and won't be changed.

Understood. Then the cost is occupying a unit slot. And that's a fine cost, too. It takes a few seconds to swap units. They don't show up on the quick menu like weapons. I think that's perfectly fine.

I think placing it in Gallon's shop for 1 PD would be fair. I think ease of obtaining would be important. (PGF is a hard hunt and high quality DF caliburs are SS Rank difficulty hunts, already.)

Better yet, just have a quest where an NPC just GIVES you one. (Unless this was intended to have some Trade value.)