"High stress" gameplay and solutions.

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Ade

Ade

;3
Hi folks,

I have a classic gamer ailment: Too Awesome to Use Syndrome

To quote TV Tropes:

"It's useful, awesome, and practical — unfortunately, you're never going to use the item outside of maybe the last boss (as you wouldn't need it afterwards), either because you're afraid to waste such a valuable treasure and will be waiting for that one good opportunity to use it... and that opportunity never comes, or maybe because it simply pains you to imagine having it missing from your inventory."

What is a "too awesome to use item?" Think of Mega Elixirs in Final Fantasy. They're super amazing consumable items that typically can't be bought from in game vendors or found with any reliability. I became one of those gamers who piled up as many these items as I could and NEVER used them- save for outside the last boss or maybe the optional side bosses that are even HARDER than the last boss- and even THEN, I felt like I was doing something wrong.

This trained me to believe that, in a video game, if you're using consumables, you're doing something wrong and playing badly. This is hard wired into me from years of gaming. I even carried it into PSO. I was SO CAREFUL on my first playthrough of PSO GameCube that I died zero times in Normal difficulty Ep1. My first death came from Mericarol in CCA when I started Ep2 (the death cloud attack).

I like to play games to see if I can beat something with the resources I was given. On PSO, if I have to return to Pioneer 2 to get more Mates or use a Scape Doll to Trap Die, I feel like I've failed to succeed with what I had. I've never cared if I was the FASTEST player; I just wanted to be good at games in the way I think that one is playing well: by making good use of their limited resources. (Which really aren't limited in a game like PSO, but they feel limited while you're down on Ragol in the mission.)

I mostly play RAcast. I like to use charge weapons and keep my big, chunky HP up because because I play PSO to relax. I used to be able to relax and prettymuch never die while destroying everything. However, because of the ever-growing prevalence of "no heal" games due to Dark Flow, I find myself in a lot of high stress gameplay lately; games where I know I'm not going to get healed by the FO and I'm going to be using a lot of Mates. I've become distressed at how EVERYONE ELSE in the game is being forced to play differently because of one weapon. What's even worse is NOT being able to heal people when I play as FO. If someone dies while I'm FOing, I always feel like it's my fault. This is simply how the best FOs thought on versions of PSO where healing wasn't discouraged.

"No heal" gameplay was more of a niche thing a couple of years ago, but more and more people are playing the game this way. And to be honest, I don't think it's very fun to have to play the game in a completely different manner because of SOMEONE ELSE'S gear choice. That is a BAD DESIGN choice. (Sega's fault, not Ephinea.)

I think Dark Flow is a cool concept, but it's too different from everything else and it requires everyone else to bend over backwards. I would like to see some solutions for this because playing PSO in a manner that is COMPLETELY THE OPPOSITE of what I used to think was "good gameplay" (keeping your character healthy and the FO heals people when they need it) is really stressing me out. I don't play this game as a perfectionist. I play it to relax. When I join random games, it's probably "no heal" 70 percent of the time now (which is way up from a couple of years ago), and that means I have to be in hyper focus mode the whole time and can't just have fun.

Possible solutions:

1. Release the Negate / Healing unit. This would prevent the wearer from receiving incoming healing. The TAers can just disqualify it from eligibility in their TA thread since this wouldn't fit their arbitrarily chosen "vanilla," but it would be a HUGE HELP to public games and would promote BUILD and GAMEPLAY diversity rather than discourage it.

2. Increase the drop rate of Anguish difficulties so people play them more. Make the drop rates proportionate to the increased time to kill. If DF can't one shot everything and if you're in constant danger, it's less useful. There wouldn't be so much gameplay focused around one singular weapon.

3. Add a reward for not dying for a long period of time. For example: For every 100k XP gained without a death, gain 1% RDR. Cap it at 10%. When you die, it resets to zero. This would discourage in-game cheese like trap dying and over-reliance on DF. This one is pretty controversial and I get that.

(I think solution # 1 is the most viable and realistic, by the way, as it was previously proposed by the Admins and never materialized.)

The lopsided nature of no-heal gameplay in PSO, which used to be relegated to niche things like TA, has spilled over into general gameplay, and it's really discouraging the use of traditional tactics.

It is embarrassing for me to say I suffer from anxiety in a video game, but I'm laying it out there. I am dead serious about this. Please don't mock this. (Some people are terrified of speaking in public and I think that's easy, for example.)

Let's get back to some regular PSO that focuses on MANY different weapons and playstyles instead of forcing everyone to be the same.

I know a lot of people like to poke fun at me or whatever, and yes I do rant a lot, but this is NOT a rant. It's just how I feel. I really poured my soul into articulating this. I hope it's taken seriously. Thanks.

-Ade
 
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Ade said:
3. Add a reward for not dying for a long period of time.
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Rewarding for not dying is essentially the same as punishing for dying. I.E. losing your bonus will feel like a punishment. And judging by how much the community raged when Ephinea brought back the exp death penalty (temporarily in year one iirc) it will not go down well. Especially with falz final form soul steal.
 
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In response to idea 1, I think something you've over-sighted is the change of play style as FOs if it were a thing. When someone doesn't have the unit, or doesn't want to waste the slot (HU already sucks for this if you don't have hit gear), they would just be constantly healed, it may even become an excuse to heal DFers. I think you would end up with a lot of people leaving Ephinea... I would stop playing here.

IMO, I think players on a vanilla server should be willing to understand how vanilla meta is. They should understand that this server is mostly PSOBB as it was intended and should get used to any new meta strategy that is found. I know there is the argument of, "why not just play sandbox", well, I think a mostly vanilla server helps you learn the game a lot better, as there are many public parties to join where some of the player base are playing with meta in mind.

There are other servers available that will allow you to play in relaxation and 'diversity of gameplay', I suggest checking them out.
 
simplify said:
IMO, I think players on a vanilla server should be willing to understand how vanilla meta is. They should understand that this server is mostly PSOBB as it was intended
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Well PGF didn't drop on the official Sega sever. It was a banned item (at least on PC it was, I never played GC/Xbox). So whether you want to consider DF to be 'vanilla' or not is a little debatable.
 
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Figure4 said:
Well PGF didn't drop on the official Sega sever. It was a banned item (at least on PC it was, I never played GC/Xbox). So wether you want to consider DF to be 'vanilla' or not is a little debatable.

Also, I wish people would stop refering to Ephinea as vanilla, since I believe at this stage we are way past that point.
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Okay, to be honest, I never played on SEGA. What I understand is that Ephinea has no custom items that allow the gameplay to deviate from weapons intended uses. This is what I mean when I say vanilla. To clarify, I am not referring to drops or server QOL improvements, I'm talking about gameplay.
 
simplify said:
Ephinea has no custom items
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Yet every other person is running around with TypeME's
I know that's only a small diference from vanilla, but it all adds up.

Anyway, I apologise for slightly derailing the topic. Wether Ephinea is technically vanilla or not is basically a nuance.
 
This is probably more of a '20 year old game with a small following' problem than anything else. If Dark Flow was primarily a time attack weapon previously, obviously that will leak over to normal gameplay as the average player reaches the point where they have both the item and the experience to use it "properly".

Dark Flow usage is about respect and, in my opinion, should be tagged in lobby names (DF/NDF?). In general, users need to respect that they aren't the only player in the game so if resta happens they don't get upset, and teammates need to do their best to conform. Regarding my own tagging idea, if a host doesn't want to deal with Dark Flow, or if a host wants to use Dark Flow, it can/should be indicated easily so other players know what to expect. Someone like Ade would avoid DF games and would join NDF games. Other players who are excited to use their Dark Flow would do the opposite. Anything untagged would be assumed to be fair game for both Dark Flow users, and for anyone to use resta as needed.

Really what it comes down to though is that if the people you are playing with are all using Dark Flow and it stresses you out, then stop playing with them or convince them to swap. If all your pubs are filled with dark flow, switch to privates. I'm pretty sure there are quite a few players who don't enjoy dark flow style either.
 
Okay, if not a unit, then a server command. Something like /noheal that can be toggled on and off. You could still use Mates (and maybe Stars) on yourself, but Resta and Stars from others wouldn't do anything.

However, to keep it from being OP, it would be necessary that it could only be toggled on / off in the lobby or on Pioneer 2 and not in game. I think that would be a good compromise to not having to waste a unit slot.

Regarding "joining other games" or "other servers" (not great solutions, sorry), like I said, DF no-heal games seem to have risen to about 70% of public games. (I'm talking Ult Mode games here, which is where 98.5% of your leveling to 200 takes place.) This is the first time in the server's history that it's now happening in the majority of games. The core gameplay of PSO for a MAJORITY of players has been modified and completely turned upside down from what people consider "normal" gameplay because of ONE of the game's hundreds of weapons. That is not a good thing. No SINGULAR item should have that much pull in any ARPG.

Yes, it is a 20 year old game, but if you have one item in a game that forces everyone else in the party to play differently, that's bad design regardless of how old the game is. If something like that gets stumbled on 20 years later and if the game is still being played, it should be fixed.

I realize that certain classes have become more / less viable over the years due to understanding of meta, but this is ONE ITEM that basically the entire game focuses itself around now. That is not a good thing. If we can do something minor to encourage build / gameplay diversity (because it's gotten VERY restrictive here lately), we should do it.

Edit: I was in a game last night with a JP FO who said they disliked the notion that DF users have a sense of entitlement to tell everyone else how to play. That is not something that PSO should strive for. A server command or a unit to stop incoming heals would let everyone play how they want.

Edit 2: I don't hate DF. I actually recently dusted off my HUcast (I leveled him to 200 in the pre-DF era back in 2016). This is why I hunted SJS and I'm now using my Bluefull to hunt a high hit Vjaya. Also, I found a random PGF last night (one down one to go). I look forward to using DF someday. (I also need to hunt 2 crazy high hit caliburs...) But I would like other classes to not feel pressured / restricted because of the HU's gear choices.
 
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Personally, a /noheal toggle sounds wonderful to me as a lazy player, and would be delightful.

For the sake of arguing (because it's fun), I think I need to identify which problem is a bigger deal to you:
  1. Dark Flow requires other players to play around it.
  2. Dark Flow is being used too often, and is defining the end game meta.
For 1, while I find it annoying and would like to not deal with it, I also think that it matches the risk/reward factor of the weapon. Parties should have to plan around bringing 1-3 suicide players using high risk weapons in order to get the most benefit from them. There really is no problem with this in concept, and adding /noheal makes an already strong weapon even stronger which makes #2 even worse.

For 2, I find this to be a bigger problem. Obviously the risk half of high risk/high reward is not high enough. But you can't just go changing that and negate the hundreds and thousands of hours that players have put into acquiring and learning dark flow, especially when this server is more about offering vanilla PSOBB than it is about developing and advancing PSOBB. Developing anguish mode further is an option but again - now everyone is playing anguish mode instead of vanilla.

I think I would continue to argue that the main problem is you joining pubs instead of making privates or pubs with a stipulation of no dark flow. I'm not against change, I just think the biggest problem with dark flow is that it is overused (not that it requires coordinated team play) and I think that is a problem that can't really be resolved with the way Ephinea is maintained, so other workarounds are required.
 
Whilst maybe more players are aware of Dark flow on the server (and understand the need to not heal at certain times) there is also a weird anti-df movement from players I don't really see playing...

GMS made it pretty clear the no resta unit/command isn't going to happen. I beat this horse to death trying to support it's implementation in 2017 and it was exhausting.

All players should indeed feel welcome. I host all my games pretty much, and I expect my wishes not to be healed to be respected. It's not just hu using dark flow, if I have a 55% chance of getting 30 seconds of invincibility, I'm going to take that on any class, and I expect you to recognise this by now Ade. What's frustrating is that people lament that DF players are ruining pub games; but people never look at it the other way around. What about those players who want to test themselves/go quicker/enjoy using df but have been brandished as the enemy for as long as I've been on the server?

I've made no resta party game names a few times... I'm not mad at the idea. If people can show me evidence of why they need to healed (and 9/10 times they don't need to be, btw- I can say from experience) other than trying to save meseta on mates then perhaps I will soften my stance. I can easily go through 200k meseta on a hu using vjaya per game, all to benefit the party in terms of speed.

I don't mind too much about being healed, especially when other players do require it. What annoys me is that many forces don't know what to do with themselves if they can't heal other players. There have been many instances where I've been healed as the only player with low hp even when I've asked not to be.

Doesn't anxiety/stress in video games make you feel alive? Maybe if you weren't the person who cares the most about not dying on this server, you wouldn't feel so stressed out...

No one is obliged to play with anyone on this server. I would rather not force someone to play with me who isn't enjoying themselves. If someone has blacklisted me due to not liking my play-style, then more power to them. That's one way to solve the problem :rolleyes:

Edit: After reading this thread however I'll probably make a habit of letting the other players know that I plan to use DF/don't want to be healed before quest start. I've done it a few times, and if it solves frustrations by other players or myself leaving, then it's progress. Doesn't address the use of triggers on non hu chars, but we can't have everything :lenny:
 
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I agree mostly with VENOM here, although I still don't support the idea of a command, I think it would change the game more than you realize, as it implies that FO would be healing way more than they need to. Also it's chill sometimes when you get saved by a FO miss clicking, it does happen sometimes, and you're eradicating these moments of nuance with a command.

I think another problem, is that a fair part of the player base likely play here because it allows the purest form of meta gameplay. Any alterations that affect actual gameplay, changes that for them.
 
"I can easily go through 200k meseta on a hu using vjaya per game, all to benefit the party in terms of speed."

That's 6 PW3 box runs to replace that money. The few seconds you saved in game is far exceeded by the time to replace the cost. That's why only playing with a "complete THIS particular run as fast as possible" mindset is viable in TA, it's not viable or sustainable in normal play.

Just because they said it's "not gonna happen" back in 2017 doesn't mean it can't happen now. This pervasive DF usage has shifted into the majority of public games. The server doesn't have to take a 2017 stance on a 2020 problem.

And no, I don't think it's fun to play that way, VENOM. I have enough stress. I just got off the phone with someone who is upset because they "only" made $283,000.00 on their investment this year. That is REAL stress. I don't want that in every moment of my life.
 
simplify said:
I agree mostly with VENOM here, although I still don't support the idea of a command, I think it would change the game more than you realize, as it implies that FO would be healing way more than they need to. Also it's chill sometimes when you get saved by a FO miss clicking, it does happen sometimes, and you're eradicating these moments of nuance with a command.

I think another problem, is that a fair part of the player base likely play here because it allows the purest form of meta gameplay. Any alterations that affect actual gameplay, changes that for them.
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No. DF was not obtainable on any Sega server. (You could hack it on PSO GC.)

There's a small group that seems to think that it was available on PSO BB JP near the end, but that is not correct. Sega, or rather, the third party company they handed the game server over to in its waning years, did release the Red Ring. However, it's my understanding that Dark Flow never saw the light of day on official PSO. (Probably for this very reason.)

This is also a poor argument because we could then assert that stackable grinders and materials, while UNIVERSALLY LOVED (as would be a no heal command) are not true vanilla.
 
This trained me to believe that, in a video game, if you're using consumables, you're doing something wrong and playing badly. This is hard wired into me from years of gaming.
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This seems to be the real source of your distress rather than player or community behavior. I recommend looking inwards, doing the work to free yourself of this mindset which clearly no longer serves you, and then joining the community in all its diversity of playstyles and attitudes. The community has no problems navigating this stuff in pubs. I play enough of them to know that people are actually quite empathic and sensitive towards each others' playstyles, and you are overwhelmingly more likely to find "both sides" accommodating each other than to find any invective or demands in game.

This is not a community issue, it's an Ade issue, and this kind of thread unfortunately lands on me with a great deal of entitlement and a deficit of self-awareness.
 
cameron- said:
This seems to be the real source of your distress rather than player or community behavior. I recommend looking inwards, doing the work to free yourself of this mindset which clearly no longer serves you, and then joining the community in all its diversity of playstyles and attitudes. The community has no problems navigating this stuff in pubs. I play enough of them to know that people are actually quite empathic and sensitive towards each others' playstyles, and you are overwhelmingly more likely to find "both sides" accommodating each other than to find any invective or demands in game.

This is not a community issue, it's an Ade issue, and this kind of thread unfortunately lands on me with a great deal of entitlement and a deficit of self-awareness.
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I've talked to lots of people who are annoyed and think that DF users are just being bullies. There is no wealth of diversity of playstyles on this server any longer.

It would be way better if we didn't have to turn a hack and slash game into a game that requires a ton of planning to play. I don't want to waste time on this. I want to shoot things and find loot.
 
Okay I guess I'll start writing down every discussion I have because apparently I'm a liar.

Why are you busing my balls on this? Wouldn't a command like this actually allow people to still get heals and play the game while DF users can do what they want? What's the downside to this?
 
not a liar but clearly affected by motivational reasoning and confirmation bias.

To respond to your edit you're suggesting a massive, structural change to how the game works. it is not "busting your balls" to challenge a unilaterally motivated desire to change how the game works at a very basic level.
 
Ade said:
No. DF was not obtainable on any Sega server. (You could hack it on PSO GC.)

...
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simplify said:
Okay, to be honest, I never played on SEGA. What I understand is that Ephinea has no custom items that allow the gameplay to deviate from weapons intended uses. This is what I mean when I say vanilla. To clarify, I am not referring to drops or server QOL improvements, I'm talking about gameplay.
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Yep. Sure, 'Type' items are an exception, but at least they are very interchangeable with commons. It's nothing compared to the likes of Rainbow on other versions of PSOBB.

Ade said:
"I can easily go through 200k meseta on a hu using vjaya per game, all to benefit the party in terms of speed."

That's 6 PW3 box runs to replace that money. The few seconds you saved in game is far exceeded by the time to replace the cost. That's why only playing with a "complete THIS particular run as fast as possible" mindset is viable in TA, it's not viable or sustainable in normal play.
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This is very true, it's not 100% viable in this aspect, but it's very close. I personally don't use Vjaya often because of this, but I would if there was a more viable way to get meseta. I wish there was a quest like the cookies one, where you could offer up a PD, run some quest and get a huge meseta reward.
 
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