"High stress" gameplay and solutions.

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No, I don't think DF as a standalone item is overpowered. I think what it does to other players (or insists they do) is not good.
This is a different opinion than one you've shared in the past many times, so I'm assuming your mind has changed on this. At least that's clear to me now.

The Ranger jumping comparison is not flawed
It's flawed in both the ways that I stated and the reason you're seemingly trying to push now. A ranger jumping would not be disruptive to other players in the game, so how is this even a comparison in that matter?

I don't care your opinion on what you think the devs thought or didn't think. None of that matters as it's a weapon that was designed by them and what their thoughts are is unknown.

there's no reason NOT to use it
Reasons to not use Dark Flow:
1. Not having enough knowledge on the spawns to use it effectively.
2. Not comfortable with using it frequently yet (not enough practice with positioning, etc)
3. Another weapon can solve the spawn more effectively (frequent occurrence)
4. Heat rooms / Poison Rooms
5. Spawns that are too hectic to manage with low hp


relaxed gameplay mechanics
What is a relaxed gameplay mechanic, Ade? I didn't know we were breaking down mechanics into categories of stress levels.

Every argument comes back to this
It comes back to whether you're willing to use mates or not. And so far it just seems like you *really* don't want to use mates or buy dimates. The tool shop is your friend.
 
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No. The main concern is about the expectations for up to 3 other players to comply to the style of one player, and how others have so easily (but begrudgingly) allowed themselves to give into this entitlement; and that nothing else in the game does this. The consequences of having to restock more often are small, yes.

You keep on trying to turn this into something OVERALL small and it’s not. It’s changed the game a lot.
 
You keep on trying to turn this into something small and it’s not.
I'm being realistic. I'm not trying to turn it into something small, I'm trying to let you know what my experience is and not let something that's been quite peaceful as of late get blown out of proportion. Public games have a minimal amount of conflict, and this simply wouldn't be the case if players really were "begrudgingly" playing a certain way for others.

In many cases you might not realize the support and the HU are actually a duo when you're joining in on pubs. They start the game together, so they're already on the same page with their gameplan. In this case the support certainly isn't begrudgingly playing that way, they're doing so intentionally and willingly.

When this isn't the case, players are mostly polite to each other when asking for something. This doesn't just go for no resta, but anything they might want from another player really. This is my experience. Nobody is playing a certain way for me unwillingly, or others that I've seen when I'm not playing my HUct.

I'm also assuming you're dropping all your other arguments that I referred to in my previous post since you didn't acknowledge them. Since this is becoming just a conversation between you and me at this point, I'll stop posting. I'm not a fan of cluttering up the forums with this.
 
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B. forces people to play a certain way at the cost of being a social outcast if you don't comply.
I told myself I'd stop posting in this thread, but I have to come back for this. This is patently untrue, and your own logic would lead you to figure it out if you'd stop and think for a second - DF users are a minority, as you've rightly stated, so they cannot turn people into "social outcasts", as you say.
 
I told myself I'd stop posting in this thread, but I have to come back for this. This is patently untrue, and your own logic would lead you to figure it out if you'd stop and think for a second - DF users are a minority, as you've rightly stated, so they cannot turn people into "social outcasts", as you say.

Hmm... a fair point. It would be more accurate to say they run the risk of being deemed disagreeable. (Like me.) :eek:

I played in several games today with limited heals and was fine. I guess all hyperbole aside, it would be nice if DF users had the choice to ignore incoming healing so that the results of their decisions (big or small) rested on them. I plan to use the unit myself.
 
I just want to second that we have a separate discussion on the unit if/when that is seriously on the table. Please think of the HUnewearls

Edit: I guess it's not that much so I'll go ahead and say it.
I'm not too worried because in practice I've only run into a small number of players (on both sides of the resta fence) that haven't been very accommodating. But I feel like adding a unit will send the message "if you want to mag trigger/df you must play with 3 unit slots" which might cause a different kind of friction
 
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Yeah HUne has it pretty tough on units. But boy can she unseal a SJS. I’m actually doing that right now ;D

I do think a discussion completely separate from this thread is very warranted.

I also give the Admins permission to use me as the NPC who gives the player the unit and can have them give some sort of crazy Time Nook style rant to the player before handing it over as my apology for being such a pain in the ass.
 
Here is my personal experience playing on this server. I started around a year ago and currently have more than 1,500 hours in the game. I started with FOney and when I reached ultimate, I noticed that Forces in this game do not work like in other games. I thought that perhaps playing FO was using magic and heal only, so I did that for a period. It was not until I played with more experienced players that they told me that I should get Magical Piece and a few weapons because Forces don't play like other games. All I did was resta and spam magic based on enemy weakness. What I found is that I wanted to contribute more to the party, so I started using SoF, Bringers Rifle, and more Force weapons offensively. My experience tells me that using FO offensively worked out better than just heal the party, spam magic and let the other team to kill the enemies. One of the reasons for this is that if I have to use resta everytime before a bunch of enemies spawn then sometimes I do not have time to prepare my positioning for example to demons big enemies and contribute to the party.

So far I only came one game in MAE GDV that a HU asked an FO to please not Resta to be able to kill Mericarols fasters, and before he explained the concept of DF, the other player left mad. In most games that I have been in the last year, the party do not have any problems because they communicate in the beginning if the HU is using DF and they don't seem to have a problem not using resta.

Having stress in casual PSO i think it's a matter of perspective. I currently use DF on my HUcast and don't mind people using resta. In particular, my DF has 100hit that I should be using only that weapon, but I mostly uses other weapons because I noticed that you need a lot of knowledge in spawns to be able to use it efficiently. I don't want to be constantly dying and making the FO to revive me.

That is why it's out of place. Because of zero death XP penalty and very little inconvenience from death, there's no reason NOT to use it.

This is one of the reason PSO is relaxing, that there is no penalty (Well, there is one based on how much time you have in the day to play. If you keep dying then it is less time for hunting the item you want). Adding an extra penalty for dying would actually make the game stressful.

This is why I think the gameplay is more stressful when a DF user is imposing on others.
I don't think this is true for most people. If a DF player knows the spawns, then they can quick kill for example Baranz and help the other players not die, (especially the force) with the missile attack, otherwise, the FO would be spamming resta to try to protect the team. This will make the party less stressed because they don't need to worry about that Baranz attacks. There are many more similar situations.

I think DF low HP gameplay is disruptive because it's the only weapon in the game with that requirement and it decreases playstyle options for others.

I think this is your perspective. For example, I could say the same thing with rangers.
"I think Rangers with v502 and hell weapons makes the gameplay in ep2 disruptive because before I can attack with my HU a target, it is already dead. Meaning that it decreases playstyle options for others that are not rangers with v502 and hell weapons."
 
Here is my personal experience playing on this server. I started around a year ago and currently have more than 1,500 hours in the game. I started with FOney and when I reached ultimate, I noticed that Forces in this game do not work like in other games. I thought that perhaps playing FO was using magic and heal only, so I did that for a period. It was not until I played with more experienced players that they told me that I should get Magical Piece and a few weapons because Forces don't play like other games. All I did was resta and spam magic based on enemy weakness. What I found is that I wanted to contribute more to the party, so I started using SoF, Bringers Rifle, and more Force weapons offensively. My experience tells me that using FO offensively worked out better than just heal the party, spam magic and let the other team to kill the enemies. One of the reasons for this is that if I have to use resta everytime before a bunch of enemies spawn then sometimes I do not have time to prepare my positioning for example to demons big enemies and contribute to the party.

So far I only came one game in MAE GDV that a HU asked an FO to please not Resta to be able to kill Mericarols fasters, and before he explained the concept of DF, the other player left mad. In most games that I have been in the last year, the party do not have any problems because they communicate in the beginning if the HU is using DF and they don't seem to have a problem not using resta.

Having stress in casual PSO i think it's a matter of perspective. I currently use DF on my HUcast and don't mind people using resta. In particular, my DF has 100hit that I should be using only that weapon, but I mostly uses other weapons because I noticed that you need a lot of knowledge in spawns to be able to use it efficiently. I don't want to be constantly dying and making the FO to revive me.



This is one of the reason PSO is relaxing, that there is no penalty (Well, there is one based on how much time you have in the day to play. If you keep dying then it is less time for hunting the item you want). Adding an extra penalty for dying would actually make the game stressful.


I don't think this is true for most people. If a DF player knows the spawns, then they can quick kill for example Baranz and help the other players not die, (especially the force) with the missile attack, otherwise, the FO would be spamming resta to try to protect the team. This will make the party less stressed because they don't need to worry about that Baranz attacks. There are many more similar situations.



I think this is your perspective. For example, I could say the same thing with rangers.
"I think Rangers with v502 and hell weapons makes the gameplay in ep2 disruptive because before I can attack with my HU a target, it is already dead. Meaning that it decreases playstyle options for others that are not rangers with v502 and hell weapons."

To address that last statement, a good HU can spawn time things with a Hell J Cutter and do just fine against Rangers using a v502 without being expected to forego traditional game mechanics (which is expected of non DF users).
 
Anyone remember this thread?

Edit: I don't think this is going to happen, and I'd rather it didn't; but if it does, please god make it a command and not a unit. MY STANCE HAS CHANGED
 
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To address that last statement, a good HU can spawn time things with a Hell J Cutter and do just fine against Rangers using a v502 without being expected to forego traditional game mechanics (which is expected of non DF users).
This is your most flagrant "addressing one tiny point of an entire post/argument" so far in the thread, man.
 
I'm prettymuch done arguing on this. Matt's thread says it all. I don't want to duke this out anymore.

"One thing's that been a problem is the centralisation of the weapon "Dark Flow", specifically how it requires a party to change what they're doing to fully get use out of it."

-This is from Matt's thread on DF and Negate / Heal

This is our server Admin's assessment of DF usage THREE YEARS AGO, not mine. It's actually used way more often now. The debate is over. This is no longer about whether or not people have to change the way they play around DF (they obviously do), it's about whether or not it's an issue. If the server Admin says it's an issue, it's an issue. Case closed. Peace out.

Thank you, Anime. I had no idea how to find this thread.
 
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I'm prettymuch done arguing on this. Matt's thread says it all. I don't want to duke this out anymore.

"One thing's that been a problem is the centralisation of the weapon "Dark Flow", specifically how it requires a party to change what they're doing to fully get use out of it."

-This is from Matt's thread on DF and Negate / Heal

This is our server Admin's assessment of DF usage THREE YEARS AGO, not mine. It's actually used way more often now. The debate is over. This is no longer about whether or not people have to change the way they play around DF (they obviously do), it's about whether or not it's an issue. If the server Admin says it's an issue, it's an issue. Case closed. Peace out.

Thank you, Anime. I had no idea how to find this thread.
You could say it was an issue then, I don't think it's an issue now. Seems to me like players have adapted and the group of people that have a problem with it is much, much smaller.
 
I'll wait to see what Matt says about it and go with whatever he says. As much as I think Matt dislikes me, I trust his judgment. Like I said, I'm done fighting on this.
 
I'm prettymuch done arguing on this. Matt's thread says it all. I don't want to duke this out anymore.

"One thing's that been a problem is the centralisation of the weapon "Dark Flow", specifically how it requires a party to change what they're doing to fully get use out of it."

-This is from Matt's thread on DF and Negate / Heal

This is our server Admin's assessment of DF usage THREE YEARS AGO, not mine. It's actually used way more often now. The debate is over. This is no longer about whether or not people have to change the way they play around DF (they obviously do), it's about whether or not it's an issue. If the server Admin says it's an issue, it's an issue. Case closed. Peace out.

Thank you, Anime. I had no idea how to find this thread.

Thanks, finally I can close this thread.

P.S. Matt isn’t the only server admin. There are 3 admins here. 2 of whom actually do the actual code for the client and server software, Matt not being one of those 2.

If either of the programmers don’t want something implemented, it won’t be done.

Food for thought there, man. :)
 
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