Don't have friends? (Locked, new topic made.)
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Re: Don't have friends?
It was always capped to 87.5% (as that's the maximum that can be defined in the RT file anyway) in the past. But, let's say, you have 110% drop rate and the item is already at 87.5%. Without the cap, that item would drop 96% of the time. Cap keeps it at 87.5%. This won't be removed.
Still, 110% may seem like a lot, but it's not that much for the more rare items. Say, for example, at 0.08% chance would only become 0.088%. It's a still a boost, though.
Right now it does, yes. However, the maximum rare chance is capped to 87.5%, in both the new multi mode and old mode.ezodagrom said:
It was always capped to 87.5% (as that's the maximum that can be defined in the RT file anyway) in the past. But, let's say, you have 110% drop rate and the item is already at 87.5%. Without the cap, that item would drop 96% of the time. Cap keeps it at 87.5%. This won't be removed.
Still, 110% may seem like a lot, but it's not that much for the more rare items. Say, for example, at 0.08% chance would only become 0.088%. It's a still a boost, though.
Villain
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Re: Don't have friends?
Ugh, recalculating heh heh heh. I think that this new system of drops is still in its experimental phase, so I'll bear with it. Good thing that this is optional, so let me give an example using some enemy with a 100% DAR because the DARs and DRs are merged for this server as Sodaboy said, hence making the calculations more tedious for me at the moment.
I will use an El Rappy in Forest with Oran at the rate of 1/64, or 1.5625%; the item involved is a Cross Scar! Let's add that there are four players in a party containing this drop scheme under the new drop system. This rate simply becomes the following (1/64)*(1*0.7^3)*4*100%=2.14375%
This probability is the result of adding the first two multiplied factors, (1/64) and (1*0.7^3), four times since one of the four players. In other words, (1/64)*(1*0.7^3)+(1/64)*(1*0.7^3)+(1/64)*(1*0.7^3)+(1/64)*(1*0.7^3)=4*(1/64)*(1*0.7^3).
Understanding probability theory, these additions are explained more easily when the + is interpreted as OR; in this case, either player 1 OR player 2 OR player 3 OR player 4 finds the item. Too bad that this theoretical, so I'm PROBABLY WRONG! In which case, the rate might as well be 0.5359375% if you feel selfish by dividing the original calculation by four.
Other than that, I multiplied all that by 100% since we would like to see this in terms of %s.
Again, I'm not sure how these calculations would apply to monsters that have less than a 100% DAR unless both of the rates are separated and published so that I can be more certain about how such calculations work under the new drop system.
For homework, try calculating probabilities under the new drop system for Del Rappies since those rates have been nerfed way too much in my opinion.
PS: I wish the published rates were formatted as fractions, but that's my favorite flavor for rates. :mrgreen:
EDIT: I'll work on factoring for lucky days later.
Ugh, recalculating heh heh heh. I think that this new system of drops is still in its experimental phase, so I'll bear with it. Good thing that this is optional, so let me give an example using some enemy with a 100% DAR because the DARs and DRs are merged for this server as Sodaboy said, hence making the calculations more tedious for me at the moment.
I will use an El Rappy in Forest with Oran at the rate of 1/64, or 1.5625%; the item involved is a Cross Scar! Let's add that there are four players in a party containing this drop scheme under the new drop system. This rate simply becomes the following (1/64)*(1*0.7^3)*4*100%=2.14375%
This probability is the result of adding the first two multiplied factors, (1/64) and (1*0.7^3), four times since one of the four players. In other words, (1/64)*(1*0.7^3)+(1/64)*(1*0.7^3)+(1/64)*(1*0.7^3)+(1/64)*(1*0.7^3)=4*(1/64)*(1*0.7^3).
Understanding probability theory, these additions are explained more easily when the + is interpreted as OR; in this case, either player 1 OR player 2 OR player 3 OR player 4 finds the item. Too bad that this theoretical, so I'm PROBABLY WRONG! In which case, the rate might as well be 0.5359375% if you feel selfish by dividing the original calculation by four.
Other than that, I multiplied all that by 100% since we would like to see this in terms of %s.
Again, I'm not sure how these calculations would apply to monsters that have less than a 100% DAR unless both of the rates are separated and published so that I can be more certain about how such calculations work under the new drop system.
For homework, try calculating probabilities under the new drop system for Del Rappies since those rates have been nerfed way too much in my opinion.
PS: I wish the published rates were formatted as fractions, but that's my favorite flavor for rates. :mrgreen:
EDIT: I'll work on factoring for lucky days later.
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Re: Don't have friends?
I'm actually thinking of splitting the drop charts into DAR and rare rate again, so it's easier to do calculations, but for those of you who couldn't follow Villain's wall of text up there...
Basically, the final calculation on the chance you'll get an item will be: Rare Drop Chance = (Rare Rate * ((DAR * DAR Modifier) / 100)) / 100;
His example was Oran's Cross Scar from an El Rappy.
El Rappy has a DAR of 100% but a rare rate of 1/64 or 1.5625%.
If you have 4 players in a PSO2 style party, the DAR modifier becomes 34%, so the final DAR will be ((100 * 34) / 100), which is 34%.
You then multiply the rare rate by the final DAR and then divide by 100. ((1.5625% * 34) / 100), which ends up having the true rare drop chance at .53125% in a 4 player PSO2 style party game.
For dynamic drop rates which factor in lucky day and multiboosts, you will have to multiply the rare rate by the dynamic drop rate...
Rare Drop Chance = (((Rare Rate * DDR) / 100) * ((DAR * DAR Modifier) / 100)) / 100;
So, if you had 110% DDR (105% from multi boost, then extra 5% from lucky day)
(1.5625% * 110%) / 100 = 1.71875%...
With a 4P PSO 2 style party... your true drop chance would be... .584375%.
The equation would look like... Rare Drop Chance = (((1.5625% * 110%) / 100%) * ((100% * 34%) / 100)) / 100
I'm actually thinking of splitting the drop charts into DAR and rare rate again, so it's easier to do calculations, but for those of you who couldn't follow Villain's wall of text up there...
Basically, the final calculation on the chance you'll get an item will be: Rare Drop Chance = (Rare Rate * ((DAR * DAR Modifier) / 100)) / 100;
His example was Oran's Cross Scar from an El Rappy.
El Rappy has a DAR of 100% but a rare rate of 1/64 or 1.5625%.
If you have 4 players in a PSO2 style party, the DAR modifier becomes 34%, so the final DAR will be ((100 * 34) / 100), which is 34%.
You then multiply the rare rate by the final DAR and then divide by 100. ((1.5625% * 34) / 100), which ends up having the true rare drop chance at .53125% in a 4 player PSO2 style party game.
For dynamic drop rates which factor in lucky day and multiboosts, you will have to multiply the rare rate by the dynamic drop rate...
Rare Drop Chance = (((Rare Rate * DDR) / 100) * ((DAR * DAR Modifier) / 100)) / 100;
So, if you had 110% DDR (105% from multi boost, then extra 5% from lucky day)
(1.5625% * 110%) / 100 = 1.71875%...
With a 4P PSO 2 style party... your true drop chance would be... .584375%.
The equation would look like... Rare Drop Chance = (((1.5625% * 110%) / 100%) * ((100% * 34%) / 100)) / 100
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Re: Don't have friends?
Another example. Hildebear, Yellowboze, AGITO, Episode 2.
Hildebear has an 80% DAR. It's rare rate is .3174% (1/315)
1P, that's .2539% chance for the AGITO with no DDR.
4P game, PSO2 style, 100% DDR (if it's turned off, which is an option now)
Equation is (((.3174% * 100) / 100) * ((80 * 34) / 100)) / 100... which equals .0863% chance for the rare.
If you have 110% DDR, equation is (((.3174% * 110) / 100) * ((80 * 34) / 100)) / 100... which equals .0949% chance for the rare.
Another example. Hildebear, Yellowboze, AGITO, Episode 2.
Hildebear has an 80% DAR. It's rare rate is .3174% (1/315)
1P, that's .2539% chance for the AGITO with no DDR.
4P game, PSO2 style, 100% DDR (if it's turned off, which is an option now)
Equation is (((.3174% * 100) / 100) * ((80 * 34) / 100)) / 100... which equals .0863% chance for the rare.
If you have 110% DDR, equation is (((.3174% * 110) / 100) * ((80 * 34) / 100)) / 100... which equals .0949% chance for the rare.
falkenjeff
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Re: Don't have friends?
It doesn't necessarily need to scale linearly. If 83% for 2 player is bad, but 49% for 4 player was fine, you could just plug in arbitrary numbers and use them:
1P: 100%
2P: 70%
3P: 60%
4P 49%
If you do, can you keep 2 sets of charts? (One with DAR, and one without). It would just be a simple copy/paste of the html before you change it, I would assume. Having DAR left in the charts makes it easy to scan them for multiple items or multiple IDs.
Sodaboy said:
It doesn't necessarily need to scale linearly. If 83% for 2 player is bad, but 49% for 4 player was fine, you could just plug in arbitrary numbers and use them:
1P: 100%
2P: 70%
3P: 60%
4P 49%
Sodaboy said:
If you do, can you keep 2 sets of charts? (One with DAR, and one without). It would just be a simple copy/paste of the html before you change it, I would assume. Having DAR left in the charts makes it easy to scan them for multiple items or multiple IDs.
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Re: Don't have friends?
on second thought about this...cant setting rares to random accomplish the same exact thing if only one person is allowed to get the rare from the DAR or am I misunderstanding? Because it's basically telling the other ppl to F off and giving a person a free rare just because. If everyone got a individual roll it'd accomplish what this sets out to do, but if its working how I think it does random pick accomplishes the same thing.
on second thought about this...cant setting rares to random accomplish the same exact thing if only one person is allowed to get the rare from the DAR or am I misunderstanding? Because it's basically telling the other ppl to F off and giving a person a free rare just because. If everyone got a individual roll it'd accomplish what this sets out to do, but if its working how I think it does random pick accomplishes the same thing.
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Re: Don't have friends?
That's how I had it initially, sorta, only one person could get the rare without modifying the DAR. But it seems people all want a chance for the rare (with the potential for it to drop for each party member), even if the chances are lowered based on the number of people currently in the room. (PSO 2 style only, just so people aren't confused.)Colette said:
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Re: Don't have friends?
I'm in agreement there. A system (optional, of course) that lowers the DAR for each enemy but gives everyone a chance at the rare is much better than one that only gives one person a chance at the rare... The only downside I can see coming from this is a lot more top tier items being in the economy than there should be. (that is, what's the impact of four SJSes having a chance to all drop at once versus only one?)
I'm in agreement there. A system (optional, of course) that lowers the DAR for each enemy but gives everyone a chance at the rare is much better than one that only gives one person a chance at the rare... The only downside I can see coming from this is a lot more top tier items being in the economy than there should be. (that is, what's the impact of four SJSes having a chance to all drop at once versus only one?)
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Re: Don't have friends?
Let's play the numbers game here.
First, 1P game, normally, no modifications, 0.0079% chance to drop.
If we had a 4P game, PSO2 style, highest boost at 110%, you're looking at a 0.00296208% chance for the item to drop for each player.
That is HIGHLY unlikely to happen. I mean, there's always the possibility, but extremely unlikely. You would have to be RNGsus himself, I think, for that to occur.Ryan said:
Let's play the numbers game here.
First, 1P game, normally, no modifications, 0.0079% chance to drop.
If we had a 4P game, PSO2 style, highest boost at 110%, you're looking at a 0.00296208% chance for the item to drop for each player.
Aleron Ives
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Re: Don't have friends?
Why would you be a jerk just for the sake of being a jerk? You can now tell who is using which drop system from the lobby, so you have no reason to join people using the new system at all. (I'm assuming Soda meant you can now see the drop system in use from the lobby counter, not the guild counter, as he said in his post.)falkenjeff said:
Soda doesn't need to start the game to see how many players are online. He can just look at the database.
falkenjeff
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Re: Don't have friends?
It was less "wanting to be a jerk" and more "wanting to voice my opinion and let people know why I'm not playing with them"
In the hopes that, if there were zero rooms for me to join (because they were all using the drop system I didn't like), maybe eventually there would be more than zero rooms for me to join, if people were aware that others may not like the new system.
But it's a moot point. I'm not allowed to do it.
Aleron Ives said:
It was less "wanting to be a jerk" and more "wanting to voice my opinion and let people know why I'm not playing with them"
In the hopes that, if there were zero rooms for me to join (because they were all using the drop system I didn't like), maybe eventually there would be more than zero rooms for me to join, if people were aware that others may not like the new system.
But it's a moot point. I'm not allowed to do it.
JezMM
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Re: Don't have friends?
To be fair, if I was using one system, hoping someone would join, then someone does just to tell me they're not joining because I'm using a system before leaving, unnecessarily giving me false hope and holding up my game for a few moments for the honour of doing so, my first thought would be "wow I wouldn't really want to play with them regardless of what system I'm using if that's how discourteous they are to other players that they don't agree with." I mean I'm sure you wouldn't want the same thing to happen to you if the situation was reversed where someone didn't want to join you because of your chosen drop system.
falkenjeff said:
To be fair, if I was using one system, hoping someone would join, then someone does just to tell me they're not joining because I'm using a system before leaving, unnecessarily giving me false hope and holding up my game for a few moments for the honour of doing so, my first thought would be "wow I wouldn't really want to play with them regardless of what system I'm using if that's how discourteous they are to other players that they don't agree with." I mean I'm sure you wouldn't want the same thing to happen to you if the situation was reversed where someone didn't want to join you because of your chosen drop system.
diemildefreude
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Re: Don't have friends?
Or you could choose to see falkenjeff's hypothetical manoeuvre as a legitimate form of communication, i.e. "I would like to play with you, stranger, but am troubled by the drop system. Farewell." You could thereupon seize the opportunity, if you were so inclined, to switch drop systems.
Of course, wording might be an issue here. He could politely ask if you could change it instead of aggressively whining. Still, a ban seems a bit much!
JezMM said:
Or you could choose to see falkenjeff's hypothetical manoeuvre as a legitimate form of communication, i.e. "I would like to play with you, stranger, but am troubled by the drop system. Farewell." You could thereupon seize the opportunity, if you were so inclined, to switch drop systems.
Of course, wording might be an issue here. He could politely ask if you could change it instead of aggressively whining. Still, a ban seems a bit much!
Aleron Ives
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Re: Don't have friends?
The bigger problem is that it's incredibly arrogant to pop into somebody else's game to effectively say, "If you want the privilege of playing with the awesomeness that is me, configure your game the way I like it!" Joining somebody else's game is an indication that you wish to play with, or at least talk to, somebody in that game. If you join for the express purpose of telling people that you don't like their choices, you're being a dick. That's like joining a Pinkal game only to say, "I'd like to play with you, but you chose a bad ID, so I don't want your lousy drops. Bye!" Sure, you're free to not play in Pinkal games, but you don't have the right to harass people who made Pinkal characters. The same is true for the settings you use when you make a game.diemildefreude said:
diemildefreude
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Re: Don't have friends?
But falkenjeff is describing a situation in which the majority is playing with a drop-mode that he doesn't like (and which deviates from Vanilla). As the minority, he would like to communicate his objections in the form of said allegedly dickish behavior. Otherwise, he either has to accept the new practice or play alone.
It would be the same if everyone on the server were a Pinkal. If I were the only Whitill, I would find it perfectly legitimate to politely request a leader change after entering a room, so that I could profit from my drop table while still playing with others. Again, this is hypothetical, but I don't find it necessarily arrogant to enter a room and express a desire to play with others as well as an objection to certain parameters - though this objection might take the form of a "suggestion".
Aleron Ives said:
But falkenjeff is describing a situation in which the majority is playing with a drop-mode that he doesn't like (and which deviates from Vanilla). As the minority, he would like to communicate his objections in the form of said allegedly dickish behavior. Otherwise, he either has to accept the new practice or play alone.
It would be the same if everyone on the server were a Pinkal. If I were the only Whitill, I would find it perfectly legitimate to politely request a leader change after entering a room, so that I could profit from my drop table while still playing with others. Again, this is hypothetical, but I don't find it necessarily arrogant to enter a room and express a desire to play with others as well as an objection to certain parameters - though this objection might take the form of a "suggestion".
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