No Resta Grr - DF Users Grr - a neverending debate?

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I'll try to add something new here:

Playing on Anguish 2 is a really good sweet spot for this game in terms of how a new, actual difficulty setting would feel. One nice thing about A2 is that DF can't one-shot many targets, so DFing is no longer viable. The enemies hit hard. Debuffs are required. Healing is required. It needs to be played more like a traditional MMO. You need Crowd Control, DPS, and Healers / Support. (There's not really a "tank" in PSO because of how enemy aggro works.)

If you don't want to play around DF users, learn to enjoy Anguish 2. It will have a similar feeling to how Ultimate was the first time you played it, and you will be beloved for Resta / support.

Edit: Oh, and the EXP awarded is bonkers.

Edit 2: A3 could be fun but it's a bit too overtuned for basically anything other than Lv. 180+ S-Tier classes.

Edit 3: One thing I dislike about the current state of fully solved Ultimate is how quickly everything dies, so it no longer has to be played like an RPG. DF HU is basically playing a Shump and forcing everyone else to do so. In Anguish 2, you will never be strong enough to melt everything like you can in Ultimate. So it will be more about trading hits / getting back to that knockdown, drag-out sort of combat we all remember from when we first entered Ultimate. You no longer get to simply memorize where everything spawns and press a button to win. You have to FIGHT. And that is FUN.
 
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I can't imagine blacklist being a definite answer, but I will say anyone I am thinking of blacklisting are people who are trying to dictate my play. So everyone is in their right to use it if they view it as the extreme of resta/df being reason to do so.
I could never, the random and adaptive nature of pubs is almost its own meta that I find fun to optimize in and made me approach the meta differently than the norm. But I'm just one person.

And that's how these discussions typically go. We're promoting that dying is learning yet we can't die because it'd be annoying for the party. We can't resta because the DFer wants to stay at low health, but then the rest of the party gets annoyed, and vice versa. Fast players. Slow but chill players. Etc.
I've seen it all. There's a lot of "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts". You literally can't do it right in the grand scheme of things. So focus on your play and enjoy the game.
 
I also wanted to echo the notion that if you have players on your Blacklist, you should review it at least a few times per year. I appreciate others bringing this up earlier.

If you don't remember why someone is on your Blacklist, you should remove them.

This community is too small to hold grudges and beefs for all eternity.

If you still have some HUmar blacklisted because he accidentally Resta'd you when you were trying to DF a Zu back in 2022, then you are the problem.
 
As a force main I typically try to keep everyone’s HP full at all times. Unless players are beserking. Then I will really only heal before teleporters, or while running.

As far as Dark Flow users, I try not to specifically heal them, but they are also not bigger than the team, so if I need to heal myself or someone else, and I catch them too, it is what it is. I personally haven’t run into any big problems.
 
Team communication and compromise is KING!

Everyone I usually interact with it is pretty cool about it. It's almost NEVER an issue. When I play as a force, I try to work with people flowing. It's super impressive when it's done well! If it's not going well, don't be offended if your flowing privileges get revoked if the needs of the party outweigh your ability to flow!

My personal opinion is both are cool. I'll do my best to accommodate Dark Flow usage if possible, within reason.

I know this is likely a HOT take, but this is true regardless of any opinion on the matter... INCLUDING my own. The Force or w/e class playing support GAME MECHANIC wise holds all the power here. If they allow you to DF, you can DF. If they decide the party needs Resta, well good luck arguing with them GAME MECHANIC wise. A Force can easily veto any flow-ing decision and there is very little you can do about it except try and compromise/convince them. Piss off the Force (Especially FOmarl/FOnewearl) or even a Hunewearl/RAmarl (especially w/ resta range boosting items) and you aren't gonna have a good time flowing. It's RARE, but I have seen Dark Flow-ing users be absolute dickheads to Forces. Which is wild to me, because you ain't flowing unless they want you to. Can't flow? Adapt and go crazy w/ zerk instead!

Accidents can/will happen! Good players know how to evaluate whats happening. Good players will communicate and compromise for whatever benefits the party more. Good players can adapt. Be a good player on both sides of this debate.
 
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resta users be like grr dont dictate how i play then dictate how other people play by using resta

the intention of this thread by thana is great and i've given lots of thought to this but at the end of the day too many people bring too much social and emotional baggage to this "debate" (as is already being evidenced by some responses) that i doubt anything productive will come of it anyway

a /noresta (or like, /noincominghealing to promote clarity for star atomizers as well) command is the best solution (no, not a unit, and not just "no healing while dark flow is equipped," and I cannot be fucked to write out my explanations for why atm so search through the discord or do your own thinking if you want to know), and I'm sure there's more than a few reasons staff haven't implemented anything like it already, so weh
 
The post already fulfilled its purpose. Some players learned a thing or two about how they could handle the whole DF thing depending on their role, especially self Resta. And apparently i didn't really miss a bullet point in the discussion since most if not all replies emphasize on one or more of the stated bullet points. And if players still refuse to adapt... well in those cases not playing together might be the only answer.
 
Im not an active player but i think ive played my fair share of PSO to say that the DF vs Resta issue is just something that really unique to this game in particular, ive played plenty of MMO/ARPGs which i think PSO falls somewhere in the middle if you dont think its a true MMO, however one thing most, if not 99.99% of such games have in common they dont promote gameplay which punishes/discourages healing from other players. Matter of fact, a MMO i played for over 15 years (FFXI) really only ever had one instance that i can recall where not having 100% HP was beneficial in some aspect, and that was very niche rings which required you to be below 76% HP for the effect to trigger.

My point is, most ppl, especially newcomers from other MMO/ARPG, just arent just to this type of gameplay which promotes leaving others to heal themselves so that 1 or more ppl can use DF. Ive always felt as long as the FO is doing their job debuffing/keep the party buffed/nukes when the appropriate episode allows it, how they handle healing is their prerogative, whether or not there is a DF user in the group. The game gives you plenty of options to keep yourself sustained via your own mates/restas, ive never liked to rely on the resta of others to begin with. While im definitely not a fan of ppl who resta DF users b/c they ignore their request not to resta/grief, i can say i genuinely hate DF users who go out of their way to make the FO feel like they are doing a shit job just b/c they are doing something they are accustomed to be doing normally in every other game such as PSO.

tl;dr, resta vs DF will always be an issue, it will never go away b/c thats way this game was designed, you either adjust to it and accommodate to the player(s) whether you are the FO or the DF(ers), theres no need to be a dick about it from either perspective, or if you are either player type and dont want to deal with such a thing, indicate in your party game (i think most seasoned DF users dont play on PUBs anyways) and call it a day.
 
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kameikojirou said:
Team communication and compromise is KING!

Everyone I usually interact with it is pretty cool about it. It's almost NEVER an issue. When I play as a force, I try to work with people flowing. It's super impressive when it's done well! If it's not going well, don't be offended if your flowing privileges get revoked if the needs of the party outweigh your ability to flow!

My personal opinion is both are cool. I'll do my best to accommodate Dark Flow usage if possible, within reason.

I know this is likely a HOT take, but this is true regardless of any opinion on the matter... INCLUDING my own. The Force or w/e class playing support GAME MECHANIC wise holds all the power here. If they allow you to DF, you can DF. If they decide the party needs Resta, well good luck arguing with them GAME MECHANIC wise. A Force can easily veto any flow-ing decision and there is very little you can do about it except try and compromise/convince them. Piss off the Force (Especially FOmarl/FOnewearl) or even a Hunewearl/RAmarl (especially w/ resta range boosting items) and you aren't gonna have a good time flowing. It's RARE, but I have seen Dark Flow-ing users be absolute dickheads to Forces. Which is wild to me, because you ain't flowing unless they want you to. Can't flow? Adapt and go crazy w/ zerk instead!

Accidents can/will happen! Good players know how to evaluate whats happening. Good players will communicate and compromise for whatever benefits the party more. Good players can adapt. Be a good player on both sides of this debate.
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I really like this. The FO decides, and you go with it. They're already serving the party and taking a back seat to the big DPS hero trope, so it SHOULD be their choice. And it should have been from DAY ONE.

I think it's time we downplay this narrative that the HU decides.

The FO decides from now on. They're doing the unglamorous support work, so they should get to choose.

Let's start pushing this as the standard narrative going forward.

The next time I'm in a game and a HU says, "No Resta, please." I'm going to speak up and say, "Let's please allow the FO to decide, since they are serving us with their support."

It's time for HUs to stop assuming they are the party commander.

(I don't main FO, btw, so I don't have a dog in this fight. I just really think it was a good argument.)

Edit: See? Now the topic is breaking new ground and evolving. So all of you who say this is a dead horse are wrong. Narratives evolve and change over time. So let's stop it with the manufactured fatigue.
 
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Resta is gonna happen, if you're a hunter that's trying to utilize it completely I get and understand the frustration, I've been on that side of the fence before. I'd think the simplest thing to do as a hunter is to at least be aware of what is actually going on and why it was casted in the first place. If the resta is intentional towards you then asking to stop should be sufficient I'd think in most cases spare the most stubborn of forces. If the resta is happening because other people in your team needs it and the FO is being a support, then I think either you need to figure out how far you need to be to avoid that or let's be honest, just change tactics and adapt to the team you're working with. You have a FO that is resta happy so go completely zerk happy in return while still clearing tougher mobs with decent efficiently.
 
Ade said:
I really like this. The FO decides, and you go with it. They're already serving the party and taking a back seat to the big DPS hero trope, so it SHOULD be their choice. And it should have been from DAY ONE.

I think it's time we downplay this narrative that the HU decides.

The FO decides from now on. They're doing the unglamorous support work, so they should get to choose.

Let's start pushing this as the standard narrative going forward.

The next time I'm in a game and a HU says, "No Resta, please." I'm going to speak up and say, "Let's please allow the FO to decide, since they are serving us with their support."

It's time for HUs to stop assuming they are the party commander.

(I don't main FO, btw, so I don't have a dog in this fight. I just really think it was a good argument.)

Edit: See? Now the topic is breaking new ground and evolving. So all of you who say this is a dead horse are wrong. Narratives evolve and change over time. So let's stop it with the manufactured fatigue.
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Thats not the answer either. Its just shifting around the presumed "toxicity". Dont be a dick and insist on not getting Resta and dont be a dick and insist on using Resta. Its that simple.
 
Thanatossa said:
Thats not the answer either. It’s just shifting around the presumed "toxicity". Dont be a dick and insist on not getting Resta and dont be a dick and insist on using Resta. It’s that simple.
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My reasoning is that FO is already serving others and taking on the less glamorous work to do so, so it should be their choice. That seems reasonable to me.
 
That's what's hilarious about this whole debate, it's not a debate! It never has been. It's an illusion that people like to argue over. There are merits to both and people shouldn't be toxic to each other as a community. Communicate and Compromise is always the most important thing.

Regardless of anyone's opinion, the ability to DF is 100% decided by the action or inaction of the Force or person playing support for the party by the mechanics of the game.
 
Lot of good thoughts on here by OP, zelph, Ade, Sundark & others. To Sundark's point, maybe a party filter flag that can be toggle would work?
A lot's already been said about the issue, & it definitely is an issue since it keeps coming up. Oddly, I think "skill issue" is somewhat the answer.
Outside of all the usual play/don't play with x-people, self-resta, use mates, etc. solutions, maybe DFers could get better situational awareness for when they're not with a predictable group. Watch your hp & know how to cope without relying on DF. For those that already can't cope while relying on DF, be mindful of what you're asking other players to deal with & stay chill.
More importantly (imo) while the DobF13 meta is strong, & nice for TA, the community really hurts for viable HU builds/gameplay that aren't zerg-happy &/or DF-ing. Some of this is the due to knowledge gap. Having a build with breakpoints met & sphered gear is no small feet, & I think what it takes to get there is kind of underestimated. Beyond that, I don't come across a lot of people that are at all invested in alternative HU builds for reasons beyond "I think it (looks) cool."
I main HUCL, & I don't DF. I built her 1) to be just as viable as meta hu's, but also 2) to be able to play with any party composition without being impeded or being herself an impediment. I'll let my gameplay testify as to whether or not I've accomplished #1. I'm more than happy to share my build and/or my thoughts on anyone else's. Again, a big issue with what "right" might look like is that gear progression in this game faces staggering odds, & it would likely be better for players (DF-hu or otherwise) to idolize dogma less & learn more about the game in order to make the most of what they have, as well as to recognize gains to aim for.
As an aside - I had thought about making a non-DF hu-guide a while back, but decided against it b/c the options are surprisingly vast, & b/c I want to own & have used & refined what I recommend. Since it takes thousands of PD's to sphere a build (in addition to getting the drops), I've scaled it back & am really only comfortable with what I've come up with for hucl & hunl, though I have theories for the boys.
TLDR: Chill out. Git güd. If you DF, master it so that resta doesn't make you a burden. If you don't DF (& even if you do), let's get more viable HU playstyles into the community.
 
I worry about the "Skill" part of this discussion, it really isn't a solution to the people it would impact the most. These are great ways to help mitigate issues with people who know the game well already, but newcomers coming into the game are going to be confused and frustrated. The more I think about this, the more I am of the opinion that simply asking the force for a thumbs up on dark flowing is the best path forward aside from developer changes to the client/server.

I worry that expecting the community to learn a lot of specific glitches and optimizations and to tell them to "git gud" is the wrong approach. They'll likely have a bad experience and play something else. We want more people to enjoy the game and not less right?
 
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In most video games, keeping your life / HP meter full is a good thing. And it's also the case in MOST situations in PSO. So the sentiment should naturally favor what comes to gamers naturally, not some forced "reprogramming" to gain micro-optimizations. (Just to bolster the argument further.)
 
I just wanna throw this out there! Is there a better, less toxic solution than asking the force "Hey! Is it cool if I flow?"

I mean grumbling at each other is pretty fun too! If you're into arguing with anonymous people on 2 1/2 decade old video game online. If anyone is into that.
 
kameikojirou said:
I just wanna throw this out there! Is there a better, less toxic solution than asking the force "Hey! Is it cool if I flow?"

I mean grumbling at each other is pretty fun too! If you're into arguing with anonymous people on 2 1/2 decade old video game online. If anyone is into that.
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Seems like good solution for 2 members of the party.

Other 2 should not have opinion?

RA always wants resta, but they have to shut up because of agreement between FO and HU?

Hm...
 
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