Room Section IDs Change

CrabdaddyLonglegs

CrabdaddyLonglegs

Member
So I'm back on PSO after a long absence and noticed the way rooms handle section IDs has changed. Back in the day, someone could make a room and leave and the room would still be the ID of the creator. It now switches to the current leader's ID. Why was this change implemented? Seems like it just forces us back to the ancient ways of having 10 characters. Changing section IDs doesn't seem to be allowed anymore either past level 20...

We have modern drop and exp systems so why not fix this (the most archaic part of the game)?
 
We've touched on this previously a few times. Objectively, from a game design standpoint, section IDs suck... but they're also one of the things that makes PSO what it is, so making them stand out and be important actually matters.
 
Virtually every argument I've seen for changing section IDs boils down to "I'm at Burger King and I want it my way" while pointing to shared EXP/PSO2 drops.

Allowing you to change your ID hurts the game more than keeping the current system.
 
Seems like a gatekeeping thing to me. People that had/have time for 10 characters get to hold loot over others' heads that would otherwise be quick (comparatively) acquisitions, so obviously anyone with that time would say/vote against it. Ultimately I'd say that hurts the game since it'd push away new/returning people since they'd feel like they couldn't catch up without spending thousands of hours (or re-spending thousands of hours after returning from Gamecube/Dreamcast days). Grinding the best gear and leveling already takes ages, after all. There's a reason the SID system didn't return post-PSO.

That's my opinion. Take or leave it but it looks like everyone already has their minds made up anyway.
 
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It's not gatekeeping at all.

The person who has 10 characters and has put in the work needed to get those 10 to ultimate to hunt gear deserves the loot they find.

A new or returning player who isn't quite there yet doesn't deserve to have an easier hunt just for showing up. They need to put in the work as well. That's the whole damn point of the game. Grinding and item hunting.

If you can't be bothered to put in the effort to do that, whether you're new or put in thousands of hours in a previous version of the game, then you're playing the wrong game.

Probably should go play on a pay-to-win or another game where you can get instant gratification just for being there. Even if thousands of players came before you.
 
Also, the Admins are very fair. Usually when there's major changes to the drop charts, they give everyone an ID change. It's easy to plan and it doesn't take long to get a new character to 80; especially if it isn't your first.
 
Sodaboy said:
It's not gatekeeping at all.

The person who has 10 characters and has put in the work needed to get those 10 to ultimate to hunt gear deserves the loot they find.

A new or returning player who isn't quite there yet doesn't deserve to have an easier hunt just for showing up. They need to put in the work as well. That's the whole damn point of the game. Grinding and item hunting.

If you can't be bothered to put in the effort to do that, whether you're new or put in thousands of hours in a previous version of the game, then you're playing the wrong game.

Probably should go play on a pay-to-win or another game where you can get instant gratification just for being there. Even if thousands of players came before you.
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It's absolutely gatekeeping by definition. "the activity of controlling, and usually limiting, general access to something."

I think the point of any game, including PSO is to have fun. I certainly wouldn't say the point is grinding. Item hunting sure because that's part of the fun, but I'm not opposed to that part. I'm simply opposed to having to spend countless hours getting 10 chars to respectable levels AGAIN. Comparing me wanting a way to swap IDs to instant gratification is quite a stretch. The items still have to be hunted.

You seemed to have the opposite stance a few years ago as seen in this thread: https://www.pioneer2.net/community/threads/room-section-ids.11773/ and two people in that thread went out of their way to ask that it remain the way it was.

So seems to me people that have been around got to have infinite ID changes, got all the stuff they wanted, then wanted it turned off.

You're the chief so you do you. I'm just stating my opinion/suggestion and how I believe the current way deters new/returning people.
 
CrabdaddyLonglegs said:
It's absolutely gatekeeping by definition. "the activity of controlling, and usually limiting, general access to something."

I think the point of any game, including PSO is to have fun. I certainly wouldn't say the point is grinding. Item hunting sure because that's part of the fun, but I'm not opposed to that part. I'm simply opposed to having to spend countless hours getting 10 chars to respectable levels AGAIN. Comparing me wanting a way to swap IDs to instant gratification is quite a stretch. The items still have to be hunted.

You seemed to have the opposite stance a few years ago as seen in this thread: https://www.pioneer2.net/community/threads/room-section-ids.11773/ and two people in that thread went out of their way to ask that it remain the way it was.

So seems to me people that have been around got to have infinite ID changes, got all the stuff they wanted, then wanted it turned off.

You're the chief so you do you. I'm just stating my opinion/suggestion and how I believe the current way deters new/returning people.
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That’s a funny thread to compare to this one to be honest.

I would say 2 probably major things have changed since then though.

First, the server has dialed back a lot of things that were deemed a step too far away from vanilla. They have moved more towards just maintaining a faithful rendition of what PSO is and means to them. Part of that, yes, is the pain of section IDs.

Second, and I might be wrong since I’m not part of the old guard, the drop tables have been vastly diversified. Aside from some of the unique hunts, which have absurd investments regardless of how many characters you make, most of the mid-high tier gear is available across several section IDs spread between the three episodes. I don’t know what the tables were like back then, but these days you really don’t need all of the section IDs to hunt fun stuff. You have a variety of choices, and each class has a few IDs that would cover most all of their needs.

Not here to argue definitions, but I feel like the restriction makes your characters each more meaningful. Stressful to plan yes! But much more special when you are locked in.
 
CrabdaddyLonglegs said:
You seemed to have the opposite stance a few years ago as seen in this thread: https://www.pioneer2.net/community/threads/room-section-ids.11773/ and two people in that thread went out of their way to ask that it remain the way it was.

So seems to me people that have been around got to have infinite ID changes, got all the stuff they wanted, then wanted it turned off.
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Yes, but then the decision was made to change all of those things so that section ID actually matters. (Previous versions of PSO also had SID change when leader changed.)

Online games change mechanics or other things all the time. We don't change things often but, when we do, there is a good reason. You may not agree with that reason, but it happens.

If you really think that people got the stuff they wanted and THEN we turned it off, you're absolutely incorrect. A great number of people, even very old players, don't have the things they want yet... but they're still playing and looking for their gear. Whether it be a specific item or a specific item with specific attributes. I can guarantee you they don't have it all.

Also, pointing out what people had or could do in the past is irrelevant. This is one of the worst arguments people can make for getting the things they want.

Extreme, but people don't go into restaurants and say, "HEY! People 20 years ago used to smoke in here! Why can't I smoke? THIS IS NOT FAIR!"

You also don't see people saying, "Well, slavery used to be legal and people had slaves! WHY CAN'T I HAVE SLAVES?"

Same goes for things in games. Classes or items can be broken and people take advantage of it, then it's patched. Complaining about how you can't abuse the system anymore but other people got gains from it is a waste of your breath.

What do you want the developers to do? Remove the patch so you can abuse it too? Downlevel the players or remove their gains? You can't fault the players for an oversight of the developers. As long as what was done is not game breaking, nothing should be done to them.

The older players were around when things were "easier", maybe too easy. You weren't. But that doesn't mean we should change the game back or compensate you in any way. You don't deserve that.
 
CrabdaddyLonglegs said:
Seems like a gatekeeping thing to me. People that had/have time for 10 characters get to hold loot over others' heads that would otherwise be quick (comparatively) acquisitions, so obviously anyone with that time would say/vote against it. Ultimately I'd say that hurts the game since it'd push away new/returning people since they'd feel like they couldn't catch up without spending thousands of hours (or re-spending thousands of hours after returning from Gamecube/Dreamcast days). Grinding the best gear and leveling already takes ages, after all. There's a reason the SID system didn't return post-PSO.

That's my opinion. Take or leave it but it looks like everyone already has their minds made up anyway.
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It pushes entitled people who don't intend to play much away and I'm fine with that. If you can change your section ID whenever you want, there is less incentive to make new characters, trade, and play with other people.

You have not put much thought into how you play the game if you think starting out/catching up takes "thousands of hours." Getting levels is piss easy with EP4 and the server even caters to the casual players with rotating boosts. Getting adequately equipped takes very little if you can live without TA; getting your dream gear is half the game and it can of course take a long time. Regardless, you don't need 10 characters to get the gear you "need" as the ID system in V3 was never that unbalanced. The charts have been further balanced to reduce the amount of IDs you "need."

I dunno what pedestal you're trying to put PSU/PSO2/NGS drop systems on, cause they have their own issues. Frankly speaking your opinion appears uninformed.

Edit: For shits and giggles, here's a lame ass casual player who routinely does inefficient things if they decide to play more than once a month. Me!
HUcast/ 125/ 53:44
RAcast/ 146/ 132:47
FOmarl/ 120/ 82:11
RAmarl/ 171/ 166:53
HUmar/ 117/ 31:45
RAcaseal/ 118/ 35:17
FOmar/ 126/ 33:31
FOnewmn/ 158/ 70:00
HUnewearl/ 85/ 14:55
RAmar/ 105/ 14:51
FOnewearl/ 116/ 22:09
HUcaseal/ 81/ 8:56

Looks like I haven't cracked 1,000 on Ephinea yet :')
 
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Ugh you can also start a char get it to ultimate in a few hours, and get it higher very fast due to many people usually playing. Many people are also helpful and generous with both time and resources. Also Id are less important if you group up, though I have every Id and several of some I often dont even use because others are running with Id's I want.
 
I understand the frustration - I also think the section ID system as a whole is a mistake, and very anti-player in the long run.

However, the importance of your section ID for your character was always an important aspect of PSO, and changing it takes away part of the actual experience in a way that changing things like drop systems or EXP systems doesn't. Ephinea is here to keep things that people remember and expect from PSO intact.

It's nothing more complicated than that. The old system we had was due to someone saying it totally worked that way on SEGA's servers, but we never found any definitive proof of this. If you can find any, maybe it will be "sticky" again, but good luck.
 
How is it gatekeeping when we all have access to other players? Every section ID has something worth farming, everyone can trade or sell said items. It's a pretty fundamental system too imo. One very distinctive to the PSO experience. You can claim it didn't return for a reason, but there is a reason we're still playing a 20 year old game.

I do think though that the one time change level cap should be bumped up to 80 though. Not really sure why that is capped at 20, considering how fast it is to reroll a character up to 20 anyways, and that SID basically doesn't even matter to that point. The new folks who don't understand how important SID is will get into very hard before realizing and having to roll new characters.
 
Kietharr said:
Not really sure why that is capped at 20...
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Because it's only intended to decouple the character name from the section ID, so you can plan your character without having to specifically think up a name that gets you the section ID you want. If you don't know how to pick a section ID, you should just play the game first. Then, if you get to the point where you decide you want to farm specific items, you can start rolling new characters.
 
CrabdaddyLonglegs said:
Seems like a gatekeeping thing to me. People that had/have time for 10 characters get to hold loot over others' heads that would otherwise be quick (comparatively) acquisitions, so obviously anyone with that time would say/vote against it. Ultimately I'd say that hurts the game since it'd push away new/returning people since they'd feel like they couldn't catch up without spending thousands of hours (or re-spending thousands of hours after returning from Gamecube/Dreamcast days). Grinding the best gear and leveling already takes ages, after all. There's a reason the SID system didn't return post-PSO.

That's my opinion. Take or leave it but it looks like everyone already has their minds made up anyway.
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As others said each ID have plenty of good stuff that you can farm and trade with other players and getting to ultimate doesn't take long at all, it shouldn't even be more than 10-12 hours during exp week and that's if you're playing solo/unoptimized, also unless you have some official source all you can do is guess why people quit and why section IDs aren't present in newer PSO games.
 
The section ID system is implemented really well on Ephinea. All section IDs have drops to make players viable in Ultimate. It encourages trading joining other people's games. If someone is hunting an item, you will usually benefit from having it yourself.

I also think the section ID system is necessary to support the massive amount of items in PSO. I'd love to hear a better way to implement drops while maintaining the balance and number of items currently available on Ephinea.
 
I'd definitely note I'm on the "screw perma-secIDs" team, most notably because choosing the wrong one in the long run is disastrous on overall enjoyment of playing the game long-term with said characters. Being able to change them periodically was a way to bring some life to your set of toons. Even now, with quite good gear and secID setups, I still crave to switch some of them around purely because certain content is just more fun to do with certain classes (albeit, with the amount of experimenting I did pre-change, I almost perfected it). Unfortunately, as it was, it was also abuseable, so I'm thankful that staff has the courtesy of actually giving out ID-switches whenever drop-charts change (and ultimately a good timeframe to ponder about what you would've wanted instead).

That being said, the reasoning behind the change is completely valid to the vision of the server. Gatekeeping is such a wild accusation especially noting that most admins and many players overall aren't even that far gear-wise themselves, and I came after them even.
 
staxx said:
I also think the section ID system is necessary to support the massive amount of items in PSO. I'd love to hear a better way to implement drops while maintaining the balance and number of items currently available on Ephinea.
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It's possible to do things like multiple potential rares per enemy, and things like quest specific drops could also be achieved, this is definitely not a hard restriction. It would certainly be possible to just KO the section ID system in general and still have all drops be available in a realistic way.

That being said - still not going to change.
 
The game (PSOBB not base PSO) is easy enough as it is. If anything there should be no section ID changes allowed at all. The whole point of the game is playing with people, and sec IDs forces you to join games you might not have. I've met a bunch of cool people joining their games just because of the sec ID.

I personally thing it adds something to your character that makes you feel more attached to them. Yeah having an ID you don't want sucks but there are multiple tools available to find the name and character combo that you want. Maybe you won't find the exact name you want but you'll find something.
 
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