Mage Aiming Problem

Discussion in 'Bug Reports' started by Dazzleforce, Feb 11, 2019 at 10:51 AM.

Tags:
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Dazzleforce

    Dazzleforce Member

    Hey everyone,

    I registered to, downloaded, and played BB, however I'm having some trouble with my mage. On the emulated Gamecube version I have no problems aiming.

    When enemies are close by, holding right trigger to prime a spell, the character turns to face the enemy to launch the spell which is normal.

    However in PSOBB, on the private server, this doesn't work. If my character is facing away from the enemy and then the spell is locked and launched, the spell will be sent in the direction the character is facing, and NOT in the direction of the enemy.

    The character is not auto-orientating itself towards the enemy. Does anyone have any idea what's going on here, and how to fix it?

    I would really rather be playing here and be able to party with fellow PSO players but with the aiming the way it is currently, it is way too frustrating. I cannot play in a fashion that demands me to face enemies square on using the camera then launching spells.

    Any help is greatly welcomed and very much appreciated.

    Thanks all :)
     
  2. Orangejuche

    Orangejuche Member

    Guildcard:
    42035821
    Get in the habit of compulsively clicking your camera reorient button, because that will also target whatever is in front of your character.
     
  3. Dazzleforce

    Dazzleforce Member

    Guys there really is no problem through Dolphin. Holding in the right trigger (back button on the 'Gamecube' controller) doesn't turn me to face the enemy, it targets them. This is good.

    When I hit X (on the X-Box pad that is being used for the Gamecube controller's B button) my character spins automatically to face the mob and casts the spell. This is also good. No, this is great :D

    But playing PSOBB, same level, same character, same area, same mobs, same spell with the same level, same targetting and attacking style from the same differences, but with different outcomes.

    PSOBB - my character will shoot the spell in the direction it's facing while holding target.

    PSO on Dolphin - my character will turn to face the enemy and launch the spell at it, while holding target.

    In fact, if I'm in an area with three Boomas, I can stand in the middle of them as they close in and use nothing but RT and X (B) and my character will auto-turn and hit them one by one.

    PSOBB I have to reorientate myself stiffly, almost like I am turning a cannon around before lining up direct with the camera, then launching the spell in the general direction of the enemy (since targeting means squat with foie.)

    There are no multi target spells being used (which will work, I assume) and zonde has no problem hitting (though that is a fixed hit - not a fireball with travel time.

    Like I said the same action in both games produces different results. I will try to get a video for you, maybe a gif, to demonstrate this :)

    Edit: Re @hooty's post

    Aiming with manual attacks must be done via orientation towards the mob, since the animation follows a straight path.

    I got that already :) But for techniques this isn't the same for (all) spells :D

    Edit No. 2: If any of you guys have the Dolphin emulator and can grab a copy of PSO for GC, please do and try the aiming with a mage using RT and the assigned button.

    You will see you auto face when you hit the spell, every time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019 at 2:33 PM
  4. Ender

    Ender Light Theme User

    Guildcard:
    42017744
    Guildcard 2:
    42019123
    Are you comparing the same level of Foie between the two versions?
     
    hooty likes this.
  5. Sparka

    Sparka Member

    Techs like Jellen and Zalure will turn your character to face the enemy, attack techs do not. You can cast Z, then start spamming Rafoie without looking and know you are locked on. Not ideal, but it works.
     
  6. Aleron Ives

    Aleron Ives Member

    Location:
    California
    It's probably not what you want to hear, but BB is working correctly, and GC is the one that's broken. Sega coded the automatic Technique targetting incorrectly in GC, so you end up with massive targetting angles that are far larger than they're supposed to be. It can be kind of handy for lazy targetting without needing to aim, but it also causes big problems in Ultimate, where PSO will refuse to let you use Foie on the enemy you're facing and will instead force you to turn around and shoot a completely different enemy or box.
     
    Nikki, Eva, Arsuru and 5 others like this.
  7. Ray

    Ray Member

    Location:
    South Korea
    Guildcard:
    42018983
    Casting Zonde also turns your character to face the nearest enemy without moving at a longer distance than jz. Useful on Ramar since he does not have Zalure tech.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 1:29 AM
  8. Sparka

    Sparka Member

    Oh yeah, forgot Zonde does too...and yeah the range is better...I guess Grants probably works too
     
  9. Dazzleforce

    Dazzleforce Member

    I noticed something interesting when I retested this.

    It seems foie, which is the recommended spell against Boomas since it is the strongest basic spell attack against them, is not showing colourwise when targeting the enemy, even then the enemy is in front of me with only the tiniest deviations.

    It makes complete sense to turn to an enemy which is somewhere between N/NW and N, while I'm facing N.

    It makes no sense to be launching the spell past the enemy which sadly has turned me off this version of the game. I'm not expecting full 180 aim-facing, but when the enemy is only the tiniest degree out of the direction you face then it's ridiculous not to auto-aim.

    The way it's working on Dolphin is perfect.

    The point about zonde that Ray mentioned is a good one. Even facing 180 degrees away from the enemy who is quite some distance faces you to it, so what the hell is wrong with foie being auto-aimed when the enemy is right in your face.

    When the enemy (in this case Boomas) walk up to me ALMOST straight on, just slightly to the left or right, on Dolphin the cursor goes from target to the pallette colour for foie. As someone mentioned yesterday when that is locked, you can launch the spell and the character is orientated before firing and hitting the enemy.

    Here in PSOBB, the initial target engages, but as the enemy walks closer there is NO target pallette colour change, instead it remains green (the pallette slot for zonde).

    The only way it turns red (indicating foie) is if you literally orientate your character literally dead on, which is incredibly tedious, off putting, and mechanical.

    Believe me ladies and gents this isn't normal.

    @Ender - Yes, I recreated the same character on PSOBB and PSO Dolphin, same levels, same starting area, same enemies, same config, same spells, same attack method, with DIFFERENT results.

    It is absurd that Dolphin allows fluid targetting with the target colour changing when the Booma is close indicating the best attack, but on PSOBB I have to face dead on as there is not even the slightest peripheral trigger for target colour change.

    @Aleron Ives - I'm fine with no large auto-targetting angles, however, in PSOBB there is NO targetting angle. At all. Period.

    @hooty - My attacks are spells, not normal cane or staff physical attacks :S
     
  10. Dazzleforce

    Dazzleforce Member

    I appreciate your advice, and instead of going full Cult of Personality, understand that this seems to be a problem with BB.

    You sent the screenshot again. Two things:

    1. It says position the character towards the enemy, not exactly in line with it.

    2. The screen within the screenshot OBVIOUSLY doesn't reflect what's written. What's on there is zonde, which will hit even with your back turned after the character turns.

    Here's what I'm going to do. I will download a Dreamcast emulator, and the original PSO, and I will test it again on there. If I am mistaken and it turns out the spell aiming with foie is indeed as you say - always been face the enemy in direct line if you want it to hit, I will come back here, apologise for pushing what seems abnormal and concede to @hooty who seems rather intolerant to my objection.

    If the combat is the same, however, I expect you would apologise in good manner, and help have this issue forwarded to someone who may be able to help.

    I will get on with the downloads and I will be sure to update you guys.

    Thank you again for all your comments, even in disagreement it's good of you to offer some help. I appreciate that :)
     
  11. Arsuru

    Arsuru 迷子

    Location:
    運命の赤い糸の向こうに
    Guildcard:
    42005210
    You definitely don't have to be "dead on". While you do have to be facing the general direction, there is a fair angle that it will work at. It's more evident at higher levels and further ranges, and you can easily see this by targeting enemies or boxes at even just a moderate distance; you will auto-target within this range. Foie at lower levels can be hard to work with, though that is mostly due to its speed.

    This chart is accurate as far as I know, and matches my experience:

    http://www.pso-world.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=284

    If you think foie is hard, try mechguns. Targeting in PSO is quirky. The target color also only has a loose association with what is bound to that color. You can still hit with something that is in the correct range but bound to a different color than the cursor that appears. The hotbar in BB will often just color almost everything grey.

    I'm sure you can get used to it.
     
    hooty likes this.
  12. Dazzleforce

    Dazzleforce Member

    Hey @Arsuru thats my point!!

    I am practically facing them and there is only a tiny deviation. I have tested this again and again, on the Dolphin it's adjusting my char direction ever so slightly to launch foie at the enemy.

    On BB it's just not doing that. I HAVE to be dead on. It will fire in the direction of the character regardless, and make no effort to turn even in the slightest towards the enemy.

    Edit: I saw the charts in your link and believe me - 100% I am MOST DEFINITELY NOT afforded even that tiny auto-lock aiming arc for foie. Please try it out.

    @hooty - I'm not suggesting you're talking about melee. I saw the first screen which showed melee, and I was just making a point that I understand some attacks have to be turned in direction of the enemies. Please don't misunderstand.

    I would also implore you guys to create a mage, and try this out - and if you can get hold of Dolphin and the PSO for it, test that too.

    I have the Dreamcast emu already, I'm just trying to get it up and running. I will keep you all posted.
     
  13. Arsuru

    Arsuru 迷子

    Location:
    運命の赤い糸の向こうに
    Guildcard:
    42005210
    Yeah, I understand what you are saying is a problem. I'm saying it isn't a problem. The angles in the chart above reflect how it should and does work here, and always should have worked as those predate BB. I have no problems with foie here within that radius and at a high level. I main Force and have thousands of hours.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 3:26 PM
  14. Eva

    Eva Member

    Guildcard:
    42004988
    c’mon- you’re basically asking that the mods rewrite the entire targeting system for you on a server you just joined where every other person is happy with the way it’s functioning and has been for months, if not years. And you wonder why you’re meeting resistance?

    More to the point, even if you’re correct, why would the mods risk alienating the people who have already spent thousands of hours playing here with the current controls?
     
  15. Dazzleforce

    Dazzleforce Member

    It seems the only thing missing is your collective willingness to avoid investigation.

    I have so far tested Dolphin, and now I just completed testing with the original Dreamcast game (via Redream). Sad to say, I was absolutely correct. BB DOES have a problem. I could gloat, but I won't - because this was a genuine call out for help re: this issue.

    The aiming arc that was included in the chart @Arsuru posted is indeed correct, and reflected in the aiming and launching of foie in both the GC version and the Dreamcast original, and NOT in PSOBB (This version). Thusfar, it appears the aiming problem lies with foie alone, as zonde and melee are otherwise unaffected.

    My mage, same setup as in BB and the Dolphin port is not only able to aim within the arc regarding Boomas, but also loot crates. I repeat, this arc is NOT present in BB when casting foie, only Dolphin and Redream.

    Why the character will not aim in BB as in both of my tests with the original and a ported version is a mystery, and obviously this is a problem with this version of PSO.

    @Eva - I 'basically' said no such thing. This was an investigation to determine whether or not a function in the PSOBB was faulted or not, but thanks for the misrepresentation and the argument that followed. If you want to discuss my post, please do so, but leave out the strawman fallacy next time.

    Does anyone have any idea who I may put this to so that whoever can fix it can review it and decide whether or not to do so?

    (That is a bug report, not a demand to rewrite the 'whole targetting system' by the way, and a discretionary corrective fix to align the targetting with the original game. Just getting that in before I am grossly misrepresented again.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 3:52 PM
  16. hooty

    hooty a e s t h e t i c 美的 マグ 育成 m a g r a i s e s

    Location:
    Louisiana swamps. ルイジアナ州 沼地
    Guildcard:
    42034130
    Guildcard 2:
    42038057
    Lol. Just got done looking at Dreamcast too, and it is much more on point than GameCube is. Ives was correct, and at this point you seem ridiculous with your walls of text disagreeing with everyone because you can't get used to the fact that GC was broken.

    It's a force btw, not a mage, and they're called techniques not spells. What the hell does "prime a spell" even mean; do you even play PSO? Wasn't gonna be that dick but eh with the way you're talking down to everyone, whatever.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 4:49 PM
    ZelLok, Eva and ToasterMage like this.
  17. ffeJ

    ffeJ Slayer of Boxes

    Location:
    Ukiah, CA
    Guildcard:
    42024451
    Guildcard 2:
    42024452
    Face the enemy cast the spell. Game works as intended. It's not a bug it's a feature. No point in arguing with everyone who responds to you, but at this rate you should join the discord. I'd love to see that.
     
    Eva and hooty like this.
  18. Eva

    Eva Member

    Guildcard:
    42004988
    adorably, that's not at all how the straw man fallacy works. I didn't misrepresent your argument or try to refute an argument that you didn't make—in reality, I granted you the possibility that your argument was correct (that BB's controls are fucked up) but asked you to justify the changes you're suggesting in the face of the consequences that would result. which you—unsurprisingly—ignored.

    you might feel like your intention in making these posts was misrepresented (though it's pretty clear you're implicitly asking for changes; just look at your first post) but that still wouldn't be a straw man, because your intentions aren't an argument.

    as an aside, you don't need to report this—it'll be seen, bug or not. next time though, you might wanna post in the actual bug report forum: https://www.pioneer2.net/community/forums/bug-reports.21/

    tldr: lol, mages
     
    hooty likes this.
  19. Arsuru

    Arsuru 迷子

    Location:
    運命の赤い糸の向こうに
    Guildcard:
    42005210
    I've played GC, on actual hardware. I've emulated it in the recent past. I'm saying the chart above works for me here on BB. The angle is smaller the closer you are. Emulating it on GC again, right now, both regular and Plus, it is definitely larger than that chart's radius, not correct according to it, as you say. That radius you are getting at close-range on GC is supposed to take effect farther out, and it most definitely does. I'm not about to connect my Dreamcast right now, but emulating it, it behaves much closer to BB.

    I already have these things on-hand to test. It's not exactly fair to demand everyone to bother with these tools, all the while not submitting any kind of visual comparison yourself.

    Gibarta used to be very fast, now it isn't. Techs didn't used to go to level 30, now they do. Sega themselves changed things between versions. It doesn't really matter if it's a bug or not; it's not a problem to target with foie currently, and it's certainly more forgiving than mechguns.

    Just accept it, learn to position, and you can still have plenty of fun here.
     
    Ray, ToasterMage, Ender and 3 others like this.
  20. Aleron Ives

    Aleron Ives Member

    Location:
    California
    I'm fairly certain that Dreamcast does not have the auto-targetting system for Techniques at all: it's a new feature for GC, and a usual, Sega coded it completely wrong. It probably won't do any good, but here we go...

    Sega tried to create a system where Technique targetting angles will increase as the Technique level increases, so that it becomes easier to target enemies as the level rises. In DC, your Techniques probably have a fixed targetting angle, regardless of their level.

    Unfortunately, Sega completely blew it. Using Foie as an example, Sega's intention was to create a system where Foie's horizontal angle would rise from 30 degrees to 180 degrees from Foie 1 to Foie 30. Sega forgot a critical step in implementing this system, however -- unit conversion. PSO uses an angle system where 360 degrees are often represented by 16 bits, or 65535, and the auto-targetting system uses angles in both formats... without converting them. As a result, Foie's horizontal angle does not range from 30 to 180 degrees: it ranges from roughly 5400 degrees to 5600 degrees! :eek:

    Since the resulting angles are larger than 360 degrees, it appears that Foie 1 has an effective targetting angle of 61 degrees, while Foie 30 has an effective targetting angle of 211 degrees. This angle is so wide that Foie 30's targetting becomes completely unreliable, and if a box behind you is slightly closer than the enemy that's right in your face, PSO will "help" you by spinning you around to shoot the box instead of the enemy, thus getting you killed.

    Of course, if the targetting system worked as Sega had intended, things would be even worse: if Foie 30 had exactly 180 degrees of targetting, you would never have any control over what you attack at all, and Foie would behave exactly like Zonde and force you to attack the nearest target, no matter which direction you're facing.

    Sega not only fixed the unit conversion bug in BB, but they adjusted the angles, too: Foie 1 has a 15 degree targetting angle, while Foie 30 has 30 degrees, which is much more reasonable than GC's intended 30-180 degree spread. You can't just shoot Foie 1 willy nilly and have the game rotate your character for you anymore, but on the other hand, Foie 30 is actually usable without constantly fighting the game to let you hit the enemy you want.

    The auto-targetting system breaks Foie, Rafoie, Barta, Gibarta, and Megid on GC. Sega fixed all of them on BB except Megid, because they removed the auto targetting for Megid entirely and gave it a fixed angle (again?).
     
    Lemoneal, ToasterMage, Spuz and 7 others like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page