Dedicate to all my Fans ! and Mayn
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Unfortunately, Ives, the name of the player started the discussion, so even if this isn't a "sociology forum," issues like this are going to come up from time to time. I'm merely reminding the community that discourse which questions accepted norms isn't necessarily intended to be adversarial.
Rune
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In all fairness and seriousness from skimming the posts on this I feel the people complaining about the user Nagger pushed the issue just as much IMO as Mayn by how they were complaining about the user Nagger. If the mods are gonna ban Mayn over having an opinion and turning the forum from a pso forum into a sociology forum they should just do it to the others as well cause they are just as guilty over turning this PSO forum into a sociology forum if this is the case really behind Mayn being banned.
So yeah I don't really agree with banning Mayn I guess. Granted I'm aware it isn't my call to make.
But again I guess this old thing is accurate for a reason:
Aleron Ives
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Your point is well taken. I'm just saying that posts about whether white privilege exists weren't really relevant to the discussion of whether somebody's name should be forbidden, so it's less a matter of discouraging people from questioning accepted norms and more a matter of discouraging people from going off topic. There's a reason some forums ban the discussion of politics and related subjects: it often leads to arguments (read: not argumentation) that derail discussions from whatever the forum's intended topic is supposed to be (in this case, PSO).
Eva
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alright, first off, this is going to be a book. second off, this is going to be my only post here, because i don't want to cause any more drama than I already have, but I feel like something needs to be said. thirdly, whatever, if nagger says the name wasn't meant to be offensive and there's a language barrier and he hasn't done anything worse than ask for gear, then alright, whatever, welcome to ephinea. this isn't about that anymore.
But this...no. I can see your thought process, and I'd agree in a vacuum, but we have actual conduct here to consider, conduct that is a far fucking cry from just questioning widely-held assumptions. So let's go point by point with that bit in red.
mayn did not offer alternatives as to why black people are poor. you wanna discuss the nuances of sociological norms? the role of culture on work ethic (see europe v japan, for instance)? fine. nobody should be banned for that (and nobody has) just because shit's going to get uncomfortable. the whole topic of white privilege is uncomfortable.
but "black people do not pursue education so it's their fault they're poor" is not an alternative reason nor a defensible ideological position. it's blaming the victim for an incredibly complex host of issues that have continued to work against them ever since—get this—white people stopped being allowed to keep them them as property 150 years ago. shocker: people who come from poverty can't afford to take out 60k in student loans for higher education. Or even get them. people who say that sort of shit just want the world to be simple so they don't have to feel bad about being born into a better situation than the people around them.
mayn did not offer alternatives as to why black people are more affected by violent crime. he dismissed it because "black on black crime is a thing." even if we say that black on black crime makes up for the difference in the rate with which blacks and whites are attacked or killed (which, by the way, it doesn't) so fucking what? we're supposed to be okay with the fact that black people are killing each other because why, exactly? because they're just black people so it's okay? because it's not white people doing it so woo-fucking-hoo we're off the hook, guys? or because as mayn said, they're just incompetent individuals upon whom all of their miserable circumstances should be laid at their feet?
mayn did not offer alternatives as to why black people are discriminated against in the work place. "Idk guys, they're probably lying" is not a fucking alternative reason and I should not have to say that out loud.
and as for the contrarian thing, I get where you're coming from, but no. what makes racism so insidious is the modern perception that racists are exclusively mean people. my parents say racist shit from time to time and they're wonderful people—but they need educating because they're products of a different time and that is in no way their fault. in the same vein, I don't think mayn's a mean person at all—I think he's a product of his education and circumstances (which might be—and probably are—much harder than any of us know). I don't think he was trying to be malicious, either.
but here's the thing: that doesn't matter. it's not okay because he honestly believes this stuff, and if he does, that's all the more reason for it to be called out. maybe after being banned for a bit, he'll reconsider his point of view. probably not, but I'm grateful that the staff acted the way they did. that shit is necessary in today's society, if only to say "no, you've crossed a line, and there are consequences."
what you perceive as an isolated, minor slight that wasn't deliberately harmful could very easily be the straw that breaks someone else's back. anyone else have any poc or queer or otherwise marginalized friends that have killed themselves? I do. and I wonder all the fucking time if they'd have stuck around if I'd have spoken up about some of the shit they had to deal with that I couldn't even wrap my head around at the time.
this is just a video game forum and I get that, and maybe I'm out of line here, and maybe this post will get me banned too, but alright then. I know for a fact there are POC here, and blatantly racist shit deserves to be called out, and I don't want to have some poor motherfucker come home after a 12 hour shift to log in and try to relax only to see hate spewed all over the forums and think that's representative of our community.
tl:dr be kind, motherfuckers. it isn't that hard.
But this...no. I can see your thought process, and I'd agree in a vacuum, but we have actual conduct here to consider, conduct that is a far fucking cry from just questioning widely-held assumptions. So let's go point by point with that bit in red.
mayn did not offer alternatives as to why black people are poor. you wanna discuss the nuances of sociological norms? the role of culture on work ethic (see europe v japan, for instance)? fine. nobody should be banned for that (and nobody has) just because shit's going to get uncomfortable. the whole topic of white privilege is uncomfortable.
but "black people do not pursue education so it's their fault they're poor" is not an alternative reason nor a defensible ideological position. it's blaming the victim for an incredibly complex host of issues that have continued to work against them ever since—get this—white people stopped being allowed to keep them them as property 150 years ago. shocker: people who come from poverty can't afford to take out 60k in student loans for higher education. Or even get them. people who say that sort of shit just want the world to be simple so they don't have to feel bad about being born into a better situation than the people around them.
mayn did not offer alternatives as to why black people are more affected by violent crime. he dismissed it because "black on black crime is a thing." even if we say that black on black crime makes up for the difference in the rate with which blacks and whites are attacked or killed (which, by the way, it doesn't) so fucking what? we're supposed to be okay with the fact that black people are killing each other because why, exactly? because they're just black people so it's okay? because it's not white people doing it so woo-fucking-hoo we're off the hook, guys? or because as mayn said, they're just incompetent individuals upon whom all of their miserable circumstances should be laid at their feet?
mayn did not offer alternatives as to why black people are discriminated against in the work place. "Idk guys, they're probably lying" is not a fucking alternative reason and I should not have to say that out loud.
and as for the contrarian thing, I get where you're coming from, but no. what makes racism so insidious is the modern perception that racists are exclusively mean people. my parents say racist shit from time to time and they're wonderful people—but they need educating because they're products of a different time and that is in no way their fault. in the same vein, I don't think mayn's a mean person at all—I think he's a product of his education and circumstances (which might be—and probably are—much harder than any of us know). I don't think he was trying to be malicious, either.
but here's the thing: that doesn't matter. it's not okay because he honestly believes this stuff, and if he does, that's all the more reason for it to be called out. maybe after being banned for a bit, he'll reconsider his point of view. probably not, but I'm grateful that the staff acted the way they did. that shit is necessary in today's society, if only to say "no, you've crossed a line, and there are consequences."
what you perceive as an isolated, minor slight that wasn't deliberately harmful could very easily be the straw that breaks someone else's back. anyone else have any poc or queer or otherwise marginalized friends that have killed themselves? I do. and I wonder all the fucking time if they'd have stuck around if I'd have spoken up about some of the shit they had to deal with that I couldn't even wrap my head around at the time.
this is just a video game forum and I get that, and maybe I'm out of line here, and maybe this post will get me banned too, but alright then. I know for a fact there are POC here, and blatantly racist shit deserves to be called out, and I don't want to have some poor motherfucker come home after a 12 hour shift to log in and try to relax only to see hate spewed all over the forums and think that's representative of our community.
tl:dr be kind, motherfuckers. it isn't that hard.
VENOM
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Lol. Mayn is well known to be a racist/bigot as well as a fucking creep.
I’ve witnessed him first hand call a player known to be black the n word more than once.
Defend him at your own peril.
A disciplining for Mayn was well, well over due.
I’ll entertain free speech to an extent; it broadens the mind. But not from an ignoramus who actually knows v little about what he is talking about.
I’ve witnessed him first hand call a player known to be black the n word more than once.
Defend him at your own peril.
A disciplining for Mayn was well, well over due.
I’ll entertain free speech to an extent; it broadens the mind. But not from an ignoramus who actually knows v little about what he is talking about.
Knowl
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i have so much respect for this. intent and motive are irrelevant when it comes to issues like this - bigotry of any kind is unacceptable and needs to be called out, always, regardless of the shape it takes. free speech is absolutely a thing, of course, but not at the expense of community - people should feel safe and able to come here and play videogames if they're man, woman, black, white, fucking purple, without needing to wade through any more of that disgusting shit than is absolutely necessary.
Rune
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The name in question wasn't something like "fucker" or "ass face" or so on. It was because some people are complaining about the name "nagger" cause they couldn't just avoid putting race into the situation themselves.
So, they pretty much started it. They were told to find proof that the person was doing it the way they said they were and instead of doing that or just dropping the subject they just yelled and complained non stop from what I can see from the 3 or so new topics and a couple of others that were revived like the name change one. 5 topics or so give or take.
They are just as guilty for the conversation leading into the subject of "if white privilege actually exists" cause they couldn't just leave the thought of race out themselves in this over 15 year old sci-fi game where we fight possessed monsters controlled by a insane mad god with light sabers and ray guns.
As for that note though, are any of the people complaining about the name "nagger" actually said poc that Nagger was so called representing in his so called troll name according to you guys without any proof behind your accusations? Or did any poc you know personally express that they were hurt by it?
Sorry, I'm actually wondering how many of you are really just a bunch of blind white knights on this subject or something.
I mean besides the fact that you keep adding words into Mayn's stupid posts that he didn't say and thus are just making him sound worse than I bet he really is is proof enough that you all like to create an flood from a leak if given a chance. And I guess it worked cause Mayn is the only one I really see banned from this so far (but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) despite the fact that he didn't officially start this but meh. In the end it is all this:
Still rather stupid that people are keeping him perma banned IMO for when you lovely people have put more words into his post than what he really said but I guess it isn't my call to make.
"Wrong think" is a rather interesting subject to talk about though I guess and I can't wait for people to put words into this post that I actually haven't put in it.
I mean what Mayn was saying in some of his rambling posts I feel could be linked to him actually saying this IMO:
Funny thing is I think MLK actually had said something like this IRL in a speech as well to show that he might have reacted that way he did in that fiction I just posted but IDK.
http://okra.stanford.edu/transcription/document_images/Vol04Scans/328_5-Dec-1957_Some Things We Must Do.pdf
Oh but one final thought to this post, "thank you" all for getting politics into my vidya and helping to ruin it more like various certain modern vidya are being accused of trying to do by some others.
So, they pretty much started it. They were told to find proof that the person was doing it the way they said they were and instead of doing that or just dropping the subject they just yelled and complained non stop from what I can see from the 3 or so new topics and a couple of others that were revived like the name change one. 5 topics or so give or take.
They are just as guilty for the conversation leading into the subject of "if white privilege actually exists" cause they couldn't just leave the thought of race out themselves in this over 15 year old sci-fi game where we fight possessed monsters controlled by a insane mad god with light sabers and ray guns.
As for that note though, are any of the people complaining about the name "nagger" actually said poc that Nagger was so called representing in his so called troll name according to you guys without any proof behind your accusations? Or did any poc you know personally express that they were hurt by it?
Sorry, I'm actually wondering how many of you are really just a bunch of blind white knights on this subject or something.
I mean besides the fact that you keep adding words into Mayn's stupid posts that he didn't say and thus are just making him sound worse than I bet he really is is proof enough that you all like to create an flood from a leak if given a chance. And I guess it worked cause Mayn is the only one I really see banned from this so far (but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) despite the fact that he didn't officially start this but meh. In the end it is all this:
Still rather stupid that people are keeping him perma banned IMO for when you lovely people have put more words into his post than what he really said but I guess it isn't my call to make.
"Wrong think" is a rather interesting subject to talk about though I guess and I can't wait for people to put words into this post that I actually haven't put in it.
I mean what Mayn was saying in some of his rambling posts I feel could be linked to him actually saying this IMO:
Funny thing is I think MLK actually had said something like this IRL in a speech as well to show that he might have reacted that way he did in that fiction I just posted but IDK.
http://okra.stanford.edu/transcription/document_images/Vol04Scans/328_5-Dec-1957_Some Things We Must Do.pdf
Oh but one final thought to this post, "thank you" all for getting politics into my vidya and helping to ruin it more like various certain modern vidya are being accused of trying to do by some others.
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the discussion was over until you and ade started defending him
also he's tempbanned, not permabanned, check your facts
ALSO like venom said, mayn is known for being openly racist so idk why you're still giving him even the slightest benefit of whatever doubt you've managed to find here
Rune
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Ade started to defend him 1st actually. I joined in after someone else started to argue with ade
According to what I read here in this topic:
It sounds like it was turned into a permaban from what I read. Even in the topic where it was brought up it was stated it was subject to change.
But hey if I'm wrong and its a temp ban still than so what? Again in the 1st place I'm just giving my thoughts on the whole situation and it doesn't really change my opinion on the matter in that both sides of this situation are in the wrong.
I haven't seen him being openly racist so I can't judge it. And someone saying he was being openly racist but doesn't show examples isn't going off of much as well IMO.
And as far as I'm concerned I'll defend whoever I want. More fun to try to defend someone who might be in the wrong anyway.
My argument isn't so much on free speech in this case but rather on the fact that both sides aren't innocent in this case.
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Rune
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IDK man, most of this stuff related to the subject has been dug up I think or at least might have some sources somewhere and isn't being left to future generations to explore cause of its sheer size.
Then again PSO does have a pretty large amount of ruins to explore and a huge mystery behind it.
Then again PSO does have a pretty large amount of ruins to explore and a huge mystery behind it.
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is it really easier for you to say this than "sorry i was wrong mayn is pretty racist"? lol
Rune
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Again, where are the actual chat logs or posts from him showing proof he is actually racist beyond those few badly made posts in that other thread that could have been made just out of haste cause it was a rather "classic type" of all the fun that goes on in pso in general.
(As in the thread is just this:
I'm not just gonna accept that someone is racist just because another player says so but then doesn't post proof for that.
1st you guys are saying Nagger is in the wrong cause of his name and is just poking the beehive with his name but then don't post proof. Really what good is your word anyway when it comes to talking about Mayn if it is the same situation as Nagger?
I already gave my opinion on IMO what he might have been "actually trying to say but worded it badly from what I could see" in that thread in case you missed that.
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jajaswipo
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Let's end this right here with a breakdown.
Would you go out in public around people of color and say "nagger" around them?
The correct answer here is "NO!" And this is why comrade took offense to this. It's that simple.
- Nagger made their username.
- Comrade( a POC) got offended and asked Nagger to change it.
- Nagger responded with something similar to "sorry not sorry".
- Comrade complained, no one took it seriously.
- Comrade made topic
- In a sudden turn of events, Mayn went full racist retard with no facts to back up his claims.
- Mayn gets owned
- Nagger makes topic saying their name is not offensive
- Mew makes questionable post with horrible misrepresentations.
- Anti sjw's say no offense, sjw's disagree.
- Mayn still banned, Nagger still annoying.
Would you go out in public around people of color and say "nagger" around them?
The correct answer here is "NO!" And this is why comrade took offense to this. It's that simple.
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