EXP Curve Adjustment

[Mutation]

I had to make an actual forum account to post, but I have to say I'm against the exp table change.
Or- at the very least, make it optional!
Mostly as a new person, I just came here because I didn't like the other servers and the massive changes they did. I also don't mind some of the small changes here like the Clio and Angel/Devil wings equip-able by all.
But really, since I started on DC and GC, all I want is my characters to never get lost and to have fun playing with my friends. I feel like there's other ways to make the VH-ULT leap easier for people with masses of alts without messing with the old flow of the game. Either way, it's still just a bunch of VH TTF runs. It doesn't exactly fix the problem, just slightly shortens it.

Edit: Alternatively, if possible, maybe the player can decide the exp table they want to use before level twenty?
And what will happen with a character that is currently level 60 or so? Will they suddenly jump up a few levels?

 

[Arsuru]

This is really difficult. I understand that after as many as nearly twenty years for some, the grind can get old. But then you have those that just loose interest at 200. I really do not mind the grind, but then I have not had to recreate as many characters time-and-time again over as many systems and servers as often as some of you surely have either. But this is PSO, almost twenty years after. Most of us are probably not new to PSO and are in this for the long-haul.

For those that do not know a particular class, yes, I think think time in VH is going to benefit them, as will that really awkward stage at the beginning of Ult. I've never really liked seeing people rush to Ult and then seeing a lot of people still not get the mechanics. If one cannot play well with crappy gear, then access to better gear and more EXP is not going to benefit them much. If they need help they can almost certainly get some. Of course there will be more to learn in Ultimate, but one should at least know the basics by then. It's okay if someone doesn't have the gear as long as they are trying. And this is coming from someone who usually doesn't care too much how others play and kinda doesn't care about meta either. I'm probably some kind of crazy outlier though.

And seeing as PSO is dead as far as actual expansions go, I don't think using the behavior of other MMOs is really applicable here. There is nothing to catch up to but ourselves, and the population is too small. The VH grind is not really that long if you just play, and rushing progress in any game is usually a dull affair. If one is going to be so committed to rush to Ult then I don't see a gentler curve helping much. If they are that committed then I can only assume that they are usually already geared for it as well, so I question who or what this is really helping. Legitimately new players, or at least those new to a certain class, probably should not always go faster, even with the wealth of information that can be found about the game now. Reading about how to play and actually playing are still different. Then we have older or established players that often just want to get it over with. To me this just looks like it is catering to people wanting to go faster, and perhaps not actually helping to build a healthy population.

(Preface: Regardless of the results of this poll, the milestone reward system will be receiving a massive overhaul, since it promotes people to not play the game when certain rewards aren't active. Most notably, there won't be any strong EXP boosts outside of events - this means 2x EXP will no longer be an available weekly occurrence.)

Ouch. Well, I guess this may delay any finishing of my ID bots, as that has generally been the only time I would bother to level them. The new curve would also ruin their æsthetic perfect level 80. I don't think the milestone was reached often enough to be problematic. EXP boosts matter little to me when playing regular characters; I'll play them anyway — but I have to say, 3x EXP with events seems broken. I would just hate to have any potential boosts in the future competing with event time, where it becomes a choice between profiting from the event and leveling a character. And yes I do see that the proposed curve would alleviate that to a degree. If people don't want to play normally when there are no boosts, well, that is their problem. But I'm not trying to derail, it is just somewhat relevant.

So I would generally lean toward No as I don't think this is necessary. In the end I probably kind of don't care. I am in favor of a few chocolate sprinkles in my PSO as long is it isn't drowned in chocolate sauce, and I think the curve actually looks good for its stated purpose. Just pls fix my ID bots' æsthetics if this does go though. Half of the reason for even making them was to avoid rushing a bunch of main characters to 80.

 

[Ceri0n]

Well, I guess I can agree on this... I didn't care much for the exp boost anyway...

 

[BlitzkriegAJ]

t̶l̶;̶d̶r̶ ̶p̶o̶s̶t̶

Yes.

 

[Ade]

I think somewhere in the shuffle it was lost that, if someone gets to Ult for the first time and is getting stomped, nothing prevents them from returning to say, Vhard Ep. 4 and polishing their game / stats for a bit. That's how it is right now. I see plenty of 80 to Lv. 110 running in VH.

 

[Dude]

If "Yes" is the decision allow people to use section ID's across their account as long as it is leveled to 80 then. Give us an ebb and flow and some Quality of Life improvements then.

 

[Mome Chomsky]

I really like this idea. Early-game PSO is really boring and anything to get past it faster is nice. The gameplay changes so much later on, I don't really agree that there's anything valuable for new players to learn in the lower difficulties.

 

[Cookie]

Vanilla game + convenient changes. That's why I'm playing on Ephinea and not Ultima. A direct change to the EXP curve is a bit too drastic imo. But how about this (all upcoming numbers are just random):
Every level 100+ character on your account will give you a small EXP bonus for every other character below level 80 (like +5% or +10%).

Or want to be more rewarding for higher level characters?
80: +0%
90: +1%
100: +2%
110: +3%
...
200: +12%
For every character above level 80 on your account. bonus = max(0, level - 80) / 10
(no bonus for section id slaves )
Those changes can be excluded from cmode, of course.

That way, beginners won't end up in ultimate too early and veterans get their exp boost. Also, veterans already level faster because of their gear anyway (level 200 mags, materials, weapons).

 

[Matt]

Actually the point of this change is to increase player retention as many people burn out on the grind up to Ultimate, because they want to item grind and play with the rest of the playerbase. It is specifically for new players, not the old players. (no idea who suggested that the newbie-help is a "front", because it really isn't)

Many of the older players only level characters during double EXP anyway, because they know what they're getting into. This would essentially make it permanent 2x EXP, but only up to Ultimate, so the grind is still preserved, just at a point where you're playing with others and are not mostly alone (common complaint from people in VH is no people to play with, "TTF Help" is also not exactly fun either).

I'm not sure what's with the extremes, people starting won't suddenly be in Ultimate in 1 second, they still play through normal and hard normally, just VH is cut down to be less of a soulless grind, which absolutely nobody likes to do (people are always complaining about their alts in VH)

 

[Cookie]

Well, I can understand the problem, but how often do people actually make new characters? Most get to level 200 and that's it. They play that character for the rest of whatever. For me, middle ground between a direct change of the exp curve and my suggestion would be to lower the ultimate entry level, like anime said before. Though level 70 might be a bit low, maybe 75 is better? If you'd go for 70 then maybe make it ep1 70, ep2 75, ep4 80.

 

[Arsuru]

That's how it is right now. I see plenty of 80 to Lv. 110 running in VH.

And that seems fine. Team up and handle Ult at the awkward levels or solo VH if you have to. Get some PDs and mats and buy some gear. Idk. Play.

Early-game PSO is really boring and anything to get past it faster is nice.

See, this is what sounds like a personal problem. One that I guess a lot of people have. I'm not sure that should be enough justification to change something so fundamental.

The gameplay changes so much later on, I don't really agree that there's anything valuable for new players to learn in the lower difficulties.

And the thing is, the gameplay does not change significantly. There are more things to learn for sure, but the core of it remains the same, with mainly forces needing to change how some things are approached. If you do not think there is anything valuable to learn in lower difficulties, well, I guess we have not run into the same kinds of players. Yes, they can learn the majority of it in Ult anyway, since the gameplay is largely the same, but the idea is that by time they get there they should not need to learn that. I expect people to at least be somewhat competent in basics so that they can learn to deal with the rest as it comes. Ult is not going to sit there and let them learn how to play; rappys are going to crit their asses into submission while they hopefully realize that they need to learn to, instead of just getting more HP in order to mate less. I had a friend tell me recently that they even went and releveld another character to get more experience playing that class. And they are already a very competent player. This person obviously gets that there are still things to learn.

Challenge mode alone is proof that there is plenty to learn in normal and hard.

As I've said I generally do not care how people play, but there are limits, and that is really only part of this argument. But I am evidently in a minority here. I'm probably wasting my energy but I just don't like how these arguments are going so casually. I'll probably stfu now.

@Matt I understand why it is being considered and I think it is a great way to do it. But getting them to the (good) item grind faster might not really help them not get burned out in the end. Maybe they should not level via TTF spam. Idk I guess I'm just weird. I'm probably not against the idea quite as much as I am against the apparent mindset, and I don't think such changes are going to be a cure for mentality.

 

[Ade]

And that seems fine. Team up and handle Ult at the awkward levels or solo VH if you have to. Get some PDs and mats and buy some gear. Idk. Play.


See, this is what sounds like a personal problem. One that I guess a lot of people have. I'm not sure that should be enough justification to change something so fundamental.

And the thing is, the gameplay does not change significantly. There are more things to learn for sure, but the core of it remains the same, with mainly forces needing to change how some things are approached. If you do not think there is anything valuable to learn in lower difficulties, well, I guess we have not run into the same kinds of players. Yes, they can learn the majority of it in Ult anyway, since the gameplay is largely the same, but the idea is that by time they get there they should not need to learn that. I expect people to at least be somewhat competent in basics so that they can learn to deal with the rest as it comes. Ult is not going to sit there and let them learn how to play; rappys are going to crit their asses into submission while they hopefully realize that they need to learn to, instead of just getting more HP in order to mate less. I had a friend tell me recently that they even went and releveld another character to get more experience playing that class. And they are already a very competent player. This person obviously gets that there are still things to learn.

Challenge mode alone is proof that there is plenty to learn in normal and hard.

As I've said I generally do not care how people play, but there are limits, and that is really only part of this argument. But I am evidently in a minority here. I'm probably wasting my energy but I just don't like how these arguments are going so casually. I'll probably stfu now.

@Matt I understand why it is being considered and I think it is a great way to do it. But getting them to the (good) item grind faster might not really help them not get burned out in the end. Maybe they should not level via TTF spam. Idk I guess I'm just weird. I'm probably not against the idea quite as much as I am against the apparent mindset, and I don't think such changes are going to be a cure for mentality.

If you think the gameplay doesn't change significantly, then you may not remember the first time you went from VH to Ult very well.

1. No hit respite in multimode.
2. Greatly reduced hit respite after knockdowns.
3. Several enemies no longer flinch every time they're hit.
4. High HP / DFP can now actually be dangerous to a player because of no knockdowns.
5. Megid. Everywhere.
6. Attack speed boosts beyond anything in pre-Ult. (H/Battle / V101)
7. The need to have a properly optimized build first emerges here.
8. Traps become way more useful.
9. Enemy speed is significantly higher which requires different timing on attacks to flinch / combo.
10. Buffs become an absolute necessity in later areas.

Other than "using combos is important" and "use items or heal when you're hurt," prettymuch everything from N-VH gets thrown out the window in Ult. Over 95% of the game is spent in Ultimate mode. Changing N-VH for the purpose of reaching the actual game faster will not fill anyone with regret.

 

[Snow Hawk]

Well, I can understand the problem, but how often do people actually make new characters?

My team and I have all characters. The struggle was there even with fo's level 1 with 30 techs. The grind was long and boring

 

[Arsuru]

If you think the gameplay doesn't change significantly, then you may not remember the first time you went from VH to Ult very well.

The first time? No, probably not. That was quite a long time ago. The first time here on Ephinea? Definately. And every time after. Everything you have listed is indeed significant, but it is not the core gameplay; the way a character actually fights is largely the same. They have to look out for new hazards and tackle some encounters differently sure; but the basics — which are the majority of what one does — are the same. The basics that I have seen a surprising amount of people apparently not understand. Attack, control, avoid, buff/debuff, heal. Perhaps I oversimplified it, or I just see it differently. N-VH is not thrown out, it is applied differently.

I was not really trying to make this in particular such a focus on not changing the curve, but as so many people seem to think it is insignificant without really saying why… Thank you for at least providing some content to back up your argument though.

My team and I have all characters. The struggle was there even with fo's level 1 with 30 techs. The grind was long and boring

Well some might say that is doing it wrong. Burn your TP pretty fast that way. Perhaps not a good example.

And again, I'm not fundamentally against the change, even if I don't think it is needed. I just mostly don't generally like the arguments present. I don't know, I think many of you sound impatient, spoiled, and lazy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Matt]

It's a video game, not a job. To call someone impatient, spoiled and lazy for not enjoying a grind to start the proper grind is a bit far-fetched.

 

[Rune]

It's a video game, not a job.

I can't wait til someone argues about this.

I've seen people do it in their own way...pokemon man, it's serious business!

 

[Arsuru]

Well I guess that came off the wrong way. This is why I don't usually get into this stuff. I still love you fam.

 

[TaoChaos]

I enjoy making alt chars until mid level 40's because I can make it easy or difficult by gear changes, then I look at the next 40 level hoof and say "nope, back to my ult char". vhard gets to a point that feels so easy, but that level cap keeps you slogging. I saw people suggest having ult start at 70, but that's like setting a 2-3x exp boost for levels 70-80, so how is that different from an exp curve change.
I'm curious how the votes are skewed based on people who have all chars in ult vs those who are making alts.
I'm also curious about whether people would even notice if this change was quietly implemented without anyone knowing.
I'm appreciating all the sides of the discussion, everyone is making great points.

 

[Ceri0n]

Well, I can understand the problem, but how often do people actually make new characters? Most get to level 200 and that's it. They play that character for the rest of whatever. For me, middle ground between a direct change of the exp curve and my suggestion would be to lower the ultimate entry level, like anime said before. Though level 70 might be a bit low, maybe 7 is better? If you'd go for 70 then maybe make it ep1 70, ep2 75, ep4 80.

Plz check my account lol, I have lots of chars. Anyway, it is for the newer players, not for me... I don't know whether changing the weekly milestones awards would increase retention though... but if it does I am all up for it.

 

[Ade]

My signature amounts to every character I have on this server except storage characters. I don't plan to make any more. I clearly have nothing to gain from this. I still voted "yes" because it's better for new people to get to the main game; not the tiny portion of the game that they get frustrated with and quit.

Nobody wants to go from Ultimate mode to playing something else, even to help new players level. It's boring. It's like doing calculus and then going back and teaching someone how to do Kindergarten math.