Ade
;3
Yes, for many years! And they’re great. This was more or less an introspective experiment.
Sekiro and the industry's [fairly] recent obsession with extremely hard games.
- Thread starter Ade
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Ade
;3
I agree with this, and my apologies. I shouldn’t call those things “cheese.” But I felt the need to specify that I did not use those mechanics to preemptively diffuse the “Oh, you didn’t actually beat the game then” comments that I envisioned were incoming. My mistake. And I mean that.
Good evening everyone!
I bring ultimate level difficulty news.
As you know, there is a conspiracy theory flying around, that the Japanese conspired to make hard games on purpose!, so that they could "for money", make this ninja conspiracy work!
And I found it!, I found a Japanese recording between a Japanese conspiracy bureau BOSS, and a top employee
The following is a transcript of these insidious conspiratorial talks and some extra stuff>
THE JAPANESE GAME NINJA CONSPIRACY TO MAKE GAMES HARD FOR THE SAKE OF $$KANE$$ FOR SAKE
Transcript 01 The meeting:
BOSS Tanaka: What we need is a plot, to somehow extract money from gaijins to us
Tamaguchi: What if we make the games easy as fuck, so the gaijins become very stupid and then we steal their women?
BOSS Tanaka: ..... .... .... Let's do tha.. no!, next suggestion!!
Yamazaki: We could deliberatly make the games hard as fuck, so that the gaijin will have game rental problems in USA, and is Europe they dont have rental problems, but game harder anyway, for the sake of money, and then they buy them as a result
BOSS Tanaka: That's it!, brilliant idea Yamazaki!. That's what we gonna do, we gonna make games hard as fuck, for the sake of money for sake! HAHAHA!
Transcript 02 The Victory hymn:
14:09 BOSS Tanaka: Where is Yamazaki.. no news on the gaijin game sells yet?.. . Secretary, where is Yamazaki?
14:10 Secretary Rinka: He said he is on his way here sir
15:34 Yamazaki: Tanaka Boss!, it's incredible sir!!
15:34 BOSS Tanaka: Yamazaki! what is it!, how was it?
15:34 Yamazaki: The gaijin sir, they bought every game we had to sell sir!!
15:35 BOSS Tanaka: NANi !!? All OF IT? They bought every single copy?
15:35 Yamazaki: Yes sir!, they bought it all, from minimum difficulty all the way, to harder difficulty games, and even the hard as fuck games sir!!
15:36 BOSS Tanaka: HAHAHAHAHA!! BAKA gaijin!! HAHAHAHA!!
15:36 Yamazaki: HEHEHEH!!! I'm telling you sir, these gaijin LOVE challenging games, and they have completely fallen on our trap!
15:37 BOSS Tanaka: HAHAHAHAHA!!!.. HAHAHAAHAHA!!. For the sake of MONEY!! BANZAI!!... Bring the sake!!
15:37 BOSS Tanaka: We shall continue to make hard games, to tranfer the wealth from gaijins into our banks! Crazy masochistic gaijins! HAHAHAHAHA!!
Transcript 111 The Hero
Eda Gaijin: Mr.Yamazaki!, I am an American citizen, and I'm here to expose you!!, I know about your secret conspiracy against USA citizens!!
Yamazaki: Conspiracy? What are you on about?
Eda Gaijin: Dont play dumb with me you fat headed hard games maker!
Yamazaki: Fat headed? Did you look at me in the urinals? Are you....
Eda Gaijin: Enough of this!!, I know ALL about your Japanese ninja conspiracy, to make games challenging on purpose for the sake of money!!
Yamazaki: HEHEHEHEH!!, How is that a conspiracy? I am merely giving the gaijin exactly what they want!! are you implying I shoud sell for free?
Eda Gaijin: I'm implying you should make the games easier!!
Yamazaki: Oh? And who would buy them? You?
Eda Gaijin: You bet I would!!
Yamazaki: And who else?
Eda Gaijin: Everyone else would!
Yamazaki: No one would buy them, only you. If same of the games we make are hard for YOU, then they are NOT for YOU. You can't handle them! HEHEH
Eda Gaijin: MOTHER fmaxs#@#%$ I fuking hat@#$@# You cun%$%#!
Yamazaki: HEHEHEHEHEHEHE!!! HEHEHEHEHEHE!!!
BOSS Tanaka: What is happening here Yamazaki, what is all this shouting?
Yamazaki: Sir, this gaijin is hilarious!, he came here to expose our conspiracy of making hard games for gaijins to buy! hehe
BOSS Tanaka: NANi !!?.. HAHAHAH!!!
Eda Gaijin: It's not funny!! not funny at all Mr.Tanaka!, why dont you make easy games for westerners like you make for the Japanese!?
BOSS Tanaka: What are you talking about crazy gaijin..
Eda Gaijin: ANSWER ME!! WHY CANT I PLAY JAPANESE GAMES LIKE IN JAPANESE JAPAN EASY GAMES TO!!? WHY!?
BOSS Tanaka: YOU ARE NOT JAPANESE!!, YOU ARE NOT A TANAKA!!
Transcript 112 The END
(this is a transcript of a recording of a conversation between a guy and a mother. It toke place in a public park, while a group a girls were playing one of the the video games predecessor, real life Rope Jumping and Hopscotch)
FAT Guy sitting on the park bench: Tsk.. why do I have to endure this in 2025?... don't people have any sentitivity towards others these days?
FAT Guy sitting on the park bench: They are still doing it.. look at how high they jump to.. no respect, no nothing.. unbelievable!!
FAT Guy sitting on the park bench: You know what.. fuk this shit, I dont even care, Im gonna give their mother a piece of my mind right now..
FAT Guy: Hello mam, I was wondering if I could have a word with you..
Lady: Hi, Yes of course
FAT Guy: Its about your daughter over there mam..
Lady: ?.. Whats the problem?
FAT Guy: Well.. the problem is that she is literaly rop jumping.. and in public no less..
Lady: What? What are you talking about? She is rope jumping.. whats the issue?
FAT Guy: Well if I must say.. Its a little incensitive to be playing a rope jumping game in public, while other people are watching... unnerfed no less. And before that, they were literaly playing unnerfed Hopscotch for over 30 minutes..
Lady: .. !?... ... Whats the problem with people seeing a game of rope jumping?..
FAT Guy: Tsk.. Its a problem, because I can't jump like that myself, and there I am eating my sandwish in peace, and I have to feel bad about not being able to jump that high. Its disrespectful and inconsiderate!, you should teach your daughter to be more considerate!! Hard games are a Japanese conspiracy!
Lady: ...... ..... ..... ......
I bring ultimate level difficulty news.
As you know, there is a conspiracy theory flying around, that the Japanese conspired to make hard games on purpose!, so that they could "for money", make this ninja conspiracy work!
And I found it!, I found a Japanese recording between a Japanese conspiracy bureau BOSS, and a top employee
The following is a transcript of these insidious conspiratorial talks and some extra stuff>
THE JAPANESE GAME NINJA CONSPIRACY TO MAKE GAMES HARD FOR THE SAKE OF $$KANE$$ FOR SAKE
Transcript 01 The meeting:
BOSS Tanaka: What we need is a plot, to somehow extract money from gaijins to us
Tamaguchi: What if we make the games easy as fuck, so the gaijins become very stupid and then we steal their women?
BOSS Tanaka: ..... .... .... Let's do tha.. no!, next suggestion!!
Yamazaki: We could deliberatly make the games hard as fuck, so that the gaijin will have game rental problems in USA, and is Europe they dont have rental problems, but game harder anyway, for the sake of money, and then they buy them as a result
BOSS Tanaka: That's it!, brilliant idea Yamazaki!. That's what we gonna do, we gonna make games hard as fuck, for the sake of money for sake! HAHAHA!
Transcript 02 The Victory hymn:
14:09 BOSS Tanaka: Where is Yamazaki.. no news on the gaijin game sells yet?.. . Secretary, where is Yamazaki?
14:10 Secretary Rinka: He said he is on his way here sir
15:34 Yamazaki: Tanaka Boss!, it's incredible sir!!
15:34 BOSS Tanaka: Yamazaki! what is it!, how was it?
15:34 Yamazaki: The gaijin sir, they bought every game we had to sell sir!!
15:35 BOSS Tanaka: NANi !!? All OF IT? They bought every single copy?
15:35 Yamazaki: Yes sir!, they bought it all, from minimum difficulty all the way, to harder difficulty games, and even the hard as fuck games sir!!
15:36 BOSS Tanaka: HAHAHAHAHA!! BAKA gaijin!! HAHAHAHA!!
15:36 Yamazaki: HEHEHEH!!! I'm telling you sir, these gaijin LOVE challenging games, and they have completely fallen on our trap!
15:37 BOSS Tanaka: HAHAHAHAHA!!!.. HAHAHAAHAHA!!. For the sake of MONEY!! BANZAI!!... Bring the sake!!
15:37 BOSS Tanaka: We shall continue to make hard games, to tranfer the wealth from gaijins into our banks! Crazy masochistic gaijins! HAHAHAHAHA!!
Transcript 111 The Hero
Eda Gaijin: Mr.Yamazaki!, I am an American citizen, and I'm here to expose you!!, I know about your secret conspiracy against USA citizens!!
Yamazaki: Conspiracy? What are you on about?
Eda Gaijin: Dont play dumb with me you fat headed hard games maker!
Yamazaki: Fat headed? Did you look at me in the urinals? Are you....
Eda Gaijin: Enough of this!!, I know ALL about your Japanese ninja conspiracy, to make games challenging on purpose for the sake of money!!
Yamazaki: HEHEHEHEH!!, How is that a conspiracy? I am merely giving the gaijin exactly what they want!! are you implying I shoud sell for free?
Eda Gaijin: I'm implying you should make the games easier!!
Yamazaki: Oh? And who would buy them? You?
Eda Gaijin: You bet I would!!
Yamazaki: And who else?
Eda Gaijin: Everyone else would!
Yamazaki: No one would buy them, only you. If same of the games we make are hard for YOU, then they are NOT for YOU. You can't handle them! HEHEH
Eda Gaijin: MOTHER fmaxs#@#%$ I fuking hat@#$@# You cun%$%#!
Yamazaki: HEHEHEHEHEHEHE!!! HEHEHEHEHEHE!!!
BOSS Tanaka: What is happening here Yamazaki, what is all this shouting?
Yamazaki: Sir, this gaijin is hilarious!, he came here to expose our conspiracy of making hard games for gaijins to buy! hehe
BOSS Tanaka: NANi !!?.. HAHAHAH!!!
Eda Gaijin: It's not funny!! not funny at all Mr.Tanaka!, why dont you make easy games for westerners like you make for the Japanese!?
BOSS Tanaka: What are you talking about crazy gaijin..
Eda Gaijin: ANSWER ME!! WHY CANT I PLAY JAPANESE GAMES LIKE IN JAPANESE JAPAN EASY GAMES TO!!? WHY!?
BOSS Tanaka: YOU ARE NOT JAPANESE!!, YOU ARE NOT A TANAKA!!
Transcript 112 The END
(this is a transcript of a recording of a conversation between a guy and a mother. It toke place in a public park, while a group a girls were playing one of the the video games predecessor, real life Rope Jumping and Hopscotch)
FAT Guy sitting on the park bench: Tsk.. why do I have to endure this in 2025?... don't people have any sentitivity towards others these days?
FAT Guy sitting on the park bench: They are still doing it.. look at how high they jump to.. no respect, no nothing.. unbelievable!!
FAT Guy sitting on the park bench: You know what.. fuk this shit, I dont even care, Im gonna give their mother a piece of my mind right now..
FAT Guy: Hello mam, I was wondering if I could have a word with you..
Lady: Hi, Yes of course
FAT Guy: Its about your daughter over there mam..
Lady: ?.. Whats the problem?
FAT Guy: Well.. the problem is that she is literaly rop jumping.. and in public no less..
Lady: What? What are you talking about? She is rope jumping.. whats the issue?
FAT Guy: Well if I must say.. Its a little incensitive to be playing a rope jumping game in public, while other people are watching... unnerfed no less. And before that, they were literaly playing unnerfed Hopscotch for over 30 minutes..
Lady: .. !?... ... Whats the problem with people seeing a game of rope jumping?..
FAT Guy: Tsk.. Its a problem, because I can't jump like that myself, and there I am eating my sandwish in peace, and I have to feel bad about not being able to jump that high. Its disrespectful and inconsiderate!, you should teach your daughter to be more considerate!! Hard games are a Japanese conspiracy!
Lady: ...... ..... ..... ......
Ade
;3
-_-;
It was fun to read though :3
I'm not jealous of the ability, since I have it. I guess I am "jealous" that people find this sort of difficulty enjoyable, and I don't. So now I wonder if anyone actually enjoys it. Your metaphor is silly because I CAN jump the rope. (I just hate it.)
Haven't you ever experienced something so negatively that you wondered how anyone else could possibly enjoy it? That's the reaction I have to this sort of "showmanship" type of difficulty.
Once again: I did beat all these games. I'm just questioning if anyone actually gets enjoyment out of the difficulty, or if we're all just trying to keep up with each other. I think the origination of this recent industry obsession with hard games comes from a disingenuous place. You seem to disagree with this and would rather take to hyperbole than discuss it.
This to me indicates that you don't feel my thoughts warrant a genuine response, so perhaps you should move on.
I am upset that the supposedly infallible, prophetic creator of these games said he made them difficult to give us a sense of satisfaction by overcoming hardship, and I did not receive that sense of satisfaction upon completing all the requirements. So I feel like I have been lied to.
If I have to try something 100 times to succeed, I only think about how I failed 99 times. I want to know why some people get to feel some sort of accomplishment from this while others do not.
Your goofy little stories above indicate to me you completely missed the point. So, please get out of my thread if you're just going to make fun of me (poorly).
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pokeemrld
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I probably don't belong in this discussion, but I personally love souls games!! Games are first and foremost supposed to be fun. If you're playing a single-player, offline game and find yourself not enjoying it, then there's nothing wrong with just playing something else you like. What's fun for me IS that experience of getting stuck at a boss fight and chipping away at it until I finally get through, and that's why I think 'hard' games have a needed niche!
pokeemrld
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Sorry to necro your reply, but I was interested in your opinion! Do you usually not like any game that incorporates stamina mechanics ? One of my fav series' is monster hunter, and it uses a somewhat traditional souls-reminiscent stamina system! Although it's a bit different, since attacking doesn't drain stamina for like 99% of attacks. Was just curious to hear your thoughts ^.^
Ade
;3
I don't mind the stamina system. I just don't understand the appeal of chipping away at a boss and winning on the 100th attempt.
If you think about it from a narrative perspective: You died on your first attempt. So you're dead. The bad guys won. Everything that happened after that is phony and you only "learned" the boss because you were given unlimited attempts. For some reason, I don't see this as an actual win. But others do. I wish I could be positive about it. I'm happy for you that you view it as a positive experience. I wish I could.
The first Goomba in 1-1 killed Mario and the Princess never got saved.
pokeemrld
Member
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The goomba comment is funny xD
Honestly I think the feeling we're both describing, gaining enjoyment from repetition until completion, is something inherent to people. You either feel happy that you spent like 7 hours on Ornstein and Smough until you beat them, or you feel exhausted after 'wasting' that time. These are both valid takes, and are deeply personal to who you are and what you expect from games!!
Also just as a small aside, I think the dying multiple times part is built into the souls lore! There's always a reason you come back, being an undead/hunter/dragon blood user. Actually, one of my fav headcanons for dark souls 1 is that the player character doesn't go hollow because YOUR persistence as a player is staving off the hollowing process. And if the player ever 'gives up' on the game, that's when their in game character goes mad, since they lost their drive to continue ^.^
Honestly I think the feeling we're both describing, gaining enjoyment from repetition until completion, is something inherent to people. You either feel happy that you spent like 7 hours on Ornstein and Smough until you beat them, or you feel exhausted after 'wasting' that time. These are both valid takes, and are deeply personal to who you are and what you expect from games!!
Also just as a small aside, I think the dying multiple times part is built into the souls lore! There's always a reason you come back, being an undead/hunter/dragon blood user. Actually, one of my fav headcanons for dark souls 1 is that the player character doesn't go hollow because YOUR persistence as a player is staving off the hollowing process. And if the player ever 'gives up' on the game, that's when their in game character goes mad, since they lost their drive to continue ^.^
Ade
;3
True. The Souls games have rather annoyingly built in plot conveniences for why you can try infinite times. But the bosses don’t learn or get any better, so it just seems fake to me.
Your positive attitude is contagious, I must admit. It helped a little :3
Dezor Inyan
Resting Demon Face
Difficulty as a means of replay value was a different beast in the GOLDEN ERA! The problem truly is fake difficulty, as has been pointed out already. We could argue about the unfairness of Castlevania 1's knockback upon being hit, but that's nitpicking.. In all honesty, "cheese" and "jank" is kind of OK to use as terms here if it means sloppy/unintuitive feeling physics, or game mechanics that are only here to (unfairly and senselessly) restrict the player. IIRC Treasure Master on NES had super "janky" jump physics, which directly translate to - you guessed it - fake difficulty. There's also quite some other offenders in that "ledges on platforms that are just background tiles and not actual part of the platforms" compartment, too.. Logically you might not feel overly happy after beating such a game, other than maybe vanquishing the thirst for revenge. Just go watch some old AVGN lol. Oh right, the Zelda CDI games offend in every single conceivable way in the fake difficulty compartment. They have it all from bad physics, mirage ledges, forcing the player to grind nonstop, etc. etc. etc. If a game has you perform very controlled maneuvering in a non fake difficulty fashion however, that's where you'll feel satisfied upon achieving such skill based victories IMHO. Meaning that when the physics, controlling and mechanics are all refined, consistent, and thus ultimatively skill based. That's one of the reasons why for example Super Metroid is nice for players of every skill level. Same with SMB - even if your frustration with fake difficulty currently makes you sound unnecessarily sarcastic at the moment! Personally, i like SOME masochism/high gamble in my videogaming sometimes, that's why i like stuff like playing aforementioned CV1, Zelda 2, or arcade shmup games on highest difficulty all w/o continues.
The only time fake difficulty is nice is when you inflict it upon yourself as an extra challenge, ex. any kind of self imposed limitation challenge run in any game, or the good old drawing hands over the screen on the Super Gameboy while playing Tetris. : ) Then, fake difficulty can be endless fun.
The only time fake difficulty is nice is when you inflict it upon yourself as an extra challenge, ex. any kind of self imposed limitation challenge run in any game, or the good old drawing hands over the screen on the Super Gameboy while playing Tetris. : ) Then, fake difficulty can be endless fun.
Ade
;3
I appreciate the thoughtful perspective. The sincerity of the response shows me that people really do enjoy the difficulty.
I have the skill; if only the enjoyment would naturally follow. Maybe flashes of it happened here and there and I need to be more mindful about collecting and retaining those moments.
Nikki
meh...
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not readin all that but that was only ever really true with arcades, and wasn't japan exclusive. Quartersink exists as a term for a reason.
on the topic of general game difficulty, and the progression of it over the years. A lot of difficulty of the games we grew up with was simply because gaming was a new industry, ideas hadn't been tried yet, and technical limitations of the hardware at the time. Because gaming has become so streamlined now limitations are put in place rather than challenging the abilities given to the character, as what I consider inverse design where you basically have a ceiling over your head that tells you you can only jump so high, rather than having no ceiling where the game lets you jump as high as you can within your level of skill. Well that and basically developers are out of ideas now, everythings been done. Thats why we get so many damn remasters now lol.
Ade
;3
No. There are documented cases of the USA version of home console games being significantly harder. Castlevania 3 for NES is one of the most egregious examples. I thought this was commonly known.
Nikki
meh...
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Oh i wasn't denying that we sometimes got harder versions of games, maybe I misread but I swear i casually perused that textwall and saw something in there about only making games harder for money lol. Either way one of my fav games of all time is a harder version than japan got, so im well aware of that.
Sundark
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they're not even the hardest games out there