Nerf Black Paper 1 & 2

[CTB]

While we are all aware of "questionable" decisions that went into Episode 4, Black Paper's Dangerous Deal is a bit more than most. Photon Crystals were admittedly a bit rarer initially but even then, this quest is dumb. My propositions:

1. Remove certain items (those that could be considered rare or exclusive, along with Smartlink and Centurion/Ability)
2. Reduce the amount of rares dropped for Black Paper 1.
3. Remove "garbage", such as * Atomizer and Meseta.
4. Replace all instances of Add Slot with Photon Drop.
   
5. Add Amp of * and * Barrier around the charts for 1 and 2.

Spoiler

A MAN CAN DREAM

 

[honeydrew]

if bpd needs a rework (it doesnt), it needs more thought put into it than this

 

[CTB]

if bpd needs a rework (it doesnt), it needs more thought put into it than this

I would rather BPD be removed outright, but you can expand on the so called minimal thought instead of doing 1:1 changes here.
put more mom into it

 

[honeydrew]

the main thought is that there is no rework needed. never have i ever heard of someone complain about bpd. basically its fine as it is.

that said, BPD is pretty weak and boring as is. the droptables are bland at best and only have like 3 worthwhile items, along with not having a visible theme. it has some potential for sure though

an example i think bpd could be turned into is basically a dump for all the weapons in game that dont have drops or other ways to get %s on them (last swan and master raven already great examples). all this would take is a careful droptable change and a quick scour for other non% weapons

 

[anime]

Just remove it and make exclusives event items. Pls Pls Pls. Removing BPD would be amazing for increasing value of certain rare collectibles, which is something Ephinea needs uwu

 

[Maverick]

Removing BPD would greatly benefit the veterans who have been around longer and already have the items/wealth, while simultaneously making things harder for newer players. A rework I could potentially get behind. Removal, no. The server vets already got OP events that newer players don’t get to take advantage of, we don’t need to make the gap even wider.

 

[Matt]

"It's harder for the new players" is not really a valid argument.

I don't have plans for BPD to change but don't make this one. It just stifles progress.

 

[Maverick]

I understand that people who have played a game for longer/more time will always have an advantage over newer players.

But removing BPD serves one group of players FAR more than everyone else, which is why I think it’s a bad idea on principle. It’s not a vet/new player issue, it’s a one group benefits a lot more issue, that just happens to be split into those two groups.

 

[Le Monde]

I don't think BPD is really a problem. It's still a gamble that takes PC's. It makes certain items more accessible if you don't want to waste two years hunting for a NUG bazooka.
How is it bad if a newer player gets a centurion/ability and is able to spin it for a profit. These items that everyone needs still hold their value well.
Then there'd be the unintended consequences of not being able to get Master Raven and Last Swan anymore.
It's inherently balanced since all the weapons drop 0'd. I think it should just be left alone.

 

[GHOSTS]

Frankly, most of items BPD gives are either ass or found easier by classic hunting. You take a huge risk playing it, as the items you can get in its various routes are so variable that you can end up on a spree of getting Snake Spires when you wanted Centurion/Abilities. Even the "good weapons" are 0'd across the board, so the benefits aren't as good as they seem at first glance.

The entrance fee is steep enough that it prevents easy grinding. Photon Crystals are not easy to grind out unless you have a Blueful force, and frankly adding hit to enemy weapons are usually more worth it than plonking them down in BPD. For stuff like Yunchang or Vivienne, it's easier to grind the enemies that drop them instead of grinding for PCs, then playing BPD 1 or 2 and hoping you'll get what you want instead of shit like the Phoneix Claw over and over. And, as a bonus for hunting, you get a chance of getting weps like the Yunchang with good hit %s, which are more than worth their weight in gold.

If this was the GC era, I'd have no problem removing it, but the gear it offers is almost entirely outclassed by Episode 4's stuff, and the Ep4-era gear can be obtained easier by classic item hunting. It's just a quick way to get a gimmick weapon or two you wanted from the old days without trying to convince people to spend tens of hours grinding quests like Lost Soul Blade for the NUG2000.

Once you start getting your gear in order, the only reason to play it is to get a Last Swan for female classes or to get an easy Milla if you have a Guld you're ready to use. Hunting and buying what you need to top things off from others is much easier than pissing around with BPD.

 

[honeydrew]

But removing BPD serves one group of players FAR more than everyone else, which is why I think it’s a bad idea on principle. It’s not a vet/new player issue, it’s a one group benefits a lot more issue, that just happens to be split into those two groups.

 

[500ryu]

This isn't even an issue

Literally why are you pestering someone to take time out their day to do minor things like this

"Groups" or playstyle differences aren't a staff issue I'm just guessing.

But regardless even if things are being changed in the game, it's to make sure the user experience is as smooth a transition as possible through different points of the game.

This is just flim flammery.

 

[anime]

The reason to do this is to increase the number of items with value in the economy, and to increase the number of items with uber rarity. More items for veterans to hunt and collect... more trading, more hunting.

The only downside is a couple items being "harder" to get for new players, but those items are already free or 1pd anyway.

The whole point of this suggestion is to give people more items to hunt, I don't see a problem with that.

If Centurion/Ability is a concern then keep it in. I could care less about that item u_u just use god/arm

Also, Master Raven and Last Swan would obviously be kept in the quest if BPD was nerfed, or moved to the event list if BPD was removed.

 

[GHOSTS]

The thing is that I've never seen anyone want most of the items from BPD. Most of these items have no value because there's no interest, not because there's a mean ol' quest tanking their values to nothing. Nobody is going to pay 20 or so PDs for a NUG2000 when a Cannon Rouge or even a Gi-Gue Bazooka do the same thing it does, but without a ridiculous hunt. Asking people to go hunt something like a NUG2000 or a Yasha is going to get a response that could be best summarized as "why" instead of "fuck yeah, let's do it!".

Looking at the items offered by BPD, the only things of value I can see from it that are worth the PC investment are Handgun: Milla, Last Swan, Master Raven, and Centurion/Ability. The rest of the "good" stuff are either easier found hunted, gained much faster from Coren's, or are weapons that used to be great in the GC version but are now horribly outclassed.

Besides, the game already has major endgame hunts in the form of high hit Heaven Strikers, Lames, Caliburs (and other weapons I'm probably forgetting off the top of my head), and some of the classic ubers, like the Psycho Wand and SJS. Those items have real value because of the benefits they give, unlike something like the Yasha. Even something like passively grinding PCs so you can boost a Baranz Launcher or Bringer's Rifle to 50h is going to have a lot more value in terms of long-term gameplay than a 0'd Vivi, Spread Needle, or Monkey King Bar from BPD.

 

[anime]

Aaaa I can't spend anymore time on this thread but I feel like people are really misunderstanding the point of this idea. I've thinking about something like this for about a year, but I've never made a thread about it for fear of misunderstanding. I guess other players just don't relate to the idea of trophy ubers and expanding the economy through collectible items.

Even something like passively grinding PCs so you can boost a Baranz Launcher or Bringer's Rifle to 50h is going to have a lot more value in terms of long-term gameplay than a 0'd Vivi, Spread Needle, or Monkey King Bar from BPD.

This has nothing to do with those items for me, or even LS, MR, Cent. For me, this is about Madam's Parasol, Book of Hitogata, Evil Curst, Nug2000-Bazooka, Handgun:Milla, Angel Harp, Agito 1975, and Yasha. GC Ubers which have artificially low value due to being easily obtained and teampointed through BPD runs. I think it'd be really fun if they were returned to the original intended rarity so that players would have more items to collect!

 

[Maverick]

I feel like you could potentially get more support if you outlined the changes you would make, and explained the benefits better. Right now, you aren’t doing your idea justice.

Most people don’t like nerfs in general. That’s why I think you need to explain what changes you would make, and why they benefit the server as a whole, without making life harder on people. In addition, “more collection items is good for economy” is too broad. As a concept, yes, I get it. Collectibles have value. But if only a few players actually have the interest + wealth for these items, how does that help the economy as a whole? Most players won’t hunt them or trade them.

Your idea may or may not be a good one, but the way you’re presenting it is definitely pushing people away right from the start.

 

[Wil]

I came here thinking this was a troll thread and I'm sorely disappointed.

 

[GHOSTS]

Again, the point is that nobody wants to hunt them because of the lack of value. Nobody wants those items because they just aren't useful. If there's one thing I've noticed from the community it's that practicality always beats out gimmicks at the end of the day. "Collectors" are a very small portion of the economy at best. I just don't like the idea of nerfing a Sega quest so a handful of people have something more to do.

And, if you're bored of PSO and want something different to hunt, you can always go for oddball things like hunt for a 50h Tanegashima, a 60h Mace of Adaman, or make a -5h Dark Flow. The sky's the limit if you want to keep yourself entertained with PSO but are tired of hunting the stuff everyone wants.

Shit, if people want to, they can go and start that NUG2000 quest right now. Nothing is stopping them from carving through Greenil Sinow Reds. It'd give people a good excuse to head back into Mines instead of Yet Another Crater Run. There's no need to take down a single quest for the sake of believing there needs to be more to do.

 

[CTB]

Well, this was eye opening. First of all, a trip down memory lane. DDWBP was pretty controversial when it was released on USBB and many people did not like it for good reason. It destroyed some exclusives, damaged the economy in various ways, rendered some hunts less rewarding, removed existing hurdles to items, and it was broken on release (literally.) Nobody complains about it because most people here haven't known BB without it.

In all honesty, I feel like this is a waste of time because people on here don't change their mind. I was curious and gave it a shot, votes are mostly in (kudos for at least looking at the topic!) Here I am posting because my boy anime liked something I said though.

Nobdoy wants to hunt them: this is cause and effect. Nobody wants to hunt them because they're now next to free. On Gamecube, Flame Garment was fucking cool. Sure, we didn't know it was garbage, but people wanted it when Tower rolled around. Invisible Guard? People were still hunting this on BB before DDWBP was announced for JP. It was very valuable as well. Agito 1975 is pretty meh and nobody uses it. It was pretty cool though. People still made Pinkal on Gamecube to pipe for it, and it was considered an uber. That didn't work on BB, but some still tried running the quest over and over instead. Practicality might beat gimmicks now, but why the hell should that matter? You don't need a NUG. Why should you get one for a PC? The only real answer is "because SEGA made a shit quest."

Just hold on, CTB. I spent a Photon Crystal! The holy grail of hunts, the most valuable of currency. I could have received shit.
...
Well, no. Photon Crystals have always been one of the easiest hunts available. The only thing high risk here is your sanity from how boring the hunt can be. These have been available from Boxes and Rare Monsters since EP4 was introduced on JPBB. Okay, I can't fact check that for the initial JP drop charts, but since they were revised at the very least. Junk only exists in DDWBP because of how common Crystals are. This is also why you don't spend one photon crystal to get your Bringer Arm 50 hit.

"SEGA quest. Holy grail, do not touch." No, we're past this. The floor has been waxed and we're all in socks. The death penalty was finally restored and the masses cried no. Thus it was removed and Sonic Team's vision original vision was denied. Now embrace Episode 4 to your super fast level 200s and try to fix some bad design choices.

Some people say this is a horrible idea because it will benefit veterans and rich people. Newbies will suffer. Well, that is wrong. Everyone made do when DDWBP wasn't here. People will make do if it vanishes tomorrow. People will have to play more to gear up. Now while I personally do think veterans with DDWBP gear will get a small boost with the removal of the quest, the arguments against directly counter this: nobody wants these items, so nobody will buy them anyway. Either way, it would be good for the economy in the long run as it'll create demand now that you can't PC a new FS into the market.

Side note, I'm still broke either way as I want my Milla, FS, and SN. Sad!

Finally, I would like to address the last argument: there is no need to remove a (bad) quest because there needs more to be done.
That completely simplifies the entire thread and I disagree wholeheartedly. Removing this quest outright would benefit the economy, encourage people to play more, buff some IDs, and let nerds show off without doing sub12 on Ult TTF.

Despite all this, I would rather nerf both DDWBPs instead. It is unrealistic to remove it anyway. Someone wanted more specifics (sorry it pains me to see drew and ryu's "gems" so I don't want to scroll up anymore.) Honestly, I left them out because rebalancing the Dorphon Routes is very difficult without making them 100% useless. If a miracle occurs, I would rather community input be had on that aspect. Only two things I would want for sure to happen: universal reduction of drops: 1 for N/H, 2 for VH/Ult. If a drop rebalance happens, I would want the total removal of non-items (namely Meseta and shop items.)

Thats all I got! Have a nice day

 

[Wil]

That's a lot of needless aggression for someone who wants us to be open minded. You sure are painting with a broad brush and assuming a lot of things about the people who don't even necessarily disagree with you. There's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of skepticism. @anime has made a great case for your suggestion without the need of your brute force.

Maybe it is a good idea. Terrible messenger though. No offense. I mean really, take a moment to step outside yourself and read what you put down lmao.