A Case Against 'Untekk Rate Fix' And Other Changes

[No Hit]

This is my case against changes recently made by the Ephinea Administration that is negatively affecting the players of the game. A majority of my case is not for balance, which should become obvious as you read on.

First I want to cover the changes made to the “Untekk Rate” or “82% Glitch.” If you are not aware of what this was, here’s a link to Honeydrew’s explanation of what it is and how it works.

Sodaboy changed this with the theory of it being a typo by Sonic Team during development. I’m not going to argue whether it was a typo or not, as it very well could have been one. I simply won’t assume if it was or wasn’t as I believe it is largely not important what their intention was. It is of more importance what effect something like this has on the players, in particular those who were aware of the options it gave for their normal mode hunting.

There was obviously some backlash from this change. A lot of the players I associate myself with disliked it from the get-go and were vocal about it. Even Sodaboy knew there would be backlash as he acknowledged it as a controversial change in the patch notes. In response to this backlash, I often saw staff say “People just don’t like nerfs.”

I think this is where they have it all wrong, as I never saw it as a nerf personally. Whenever untekk rate is brought up as a choice for a quest or hunt, it’s almost always responded to with “Untekk Rate is a meme.” There’s a very good reason for this. It’s not a driving factor in hunting, in fact it was an even worse one a lot of the time. Anyone who has played the game to a decent extent will tell you that much.

So how can you call the removal of something like this a nerf?

My opinion is that it’s not one. Rather all this caused was a lot of distress among the players who know about it, all because of a factor the staff seems to be forgetting about.

Players enjoyed that it existed; it was fun for them. It let them go into certain areas with an off-meta ID and say, “at least there’s untekk rate.” It let them plan more options around their hunts, even if they knew it wasn’t a good idea. It really was just a fun aspect of normal mode that was brought on by accident. Now all of this has been simplified for little reason.

A change like this is something that only affects the players who knew about it and found fun within it. What is the point in taking that away from them, especially when it gains you nothing else? It felt like an attack on these players rather than an honest change to the game.

When these players voice their opinion on the matter it tends to be commonplace for staff to start calling them babies and insist that they just complain too much. Look through any archive on forums or on discord and you will see this is often the case.

What I don’t understand is why this condescending attitude is taken to these players who simply feel very passionate about the game. They’re going to at least crack jokes about the changes, if not dump whole essays on why they think x is a bad idea. It’s why they’re even playing to begin with; they simply love the game.


I was going to include some of my thoughts about the more recent changes regarding section IDs, but I think it all bogs down to the same factors I already mentioned. We’re all in it for the fun of the game, and sometimes changes can start to take that away.

 

[cameron-]

I’m against any deceleration of the pace of BB. I know i can play this game for another 40 years and still have room for improvement as it concerns my gear. we all know that you could play the right id’s on floor 8 for years and never find that cal or sac mechs or whatever so I disagree with the nerf on the basis that it is strictly anti-player and benefits no one. it does not provide balance or level the playing field between users - it is like i said strictly anti-player. for the same reason i disagree with the section ID nerf from today - on the grounds that it benefits no one.

(i also disagree with the 82% nerf on a vanilla basis).

Eternal gratitude to the powers that be for keeping the lights on, for recent additions to the quest list and for their active engagement in the server’s direction. ephinea is a treasure and we’re all blessed by its existence.

 

[C.Edge]

I am of the camp that believe the rate should be reverted to 82%. What I would like to know is why such a controversial change was made without the input of players. It almost felt like we were blind-sided so to speak. As far as I can tell I don't think there was a phase to feel the players out to see their opinions about the change. This nerf honestly feels like you guys are just flexing. Fixing an alleged typo just because you can, rather than considering how this would change things and consult the player-base (The guys who are actually playing the game) for possible solutions or compromises.

As always, I will always be thankful for Sodaboy and staff for keeping the server running.

 

[Jafet777]

personally i respect the decision that the administrations do and even most bans that the admits do are well justified to the point i agree. Ephinea as my first server ever has impressed me with the things that has done and the way they progress. It has improve so much that it never fails to intrigue me of whats next. sadly this will be the only time i wont agree with the decision not because the idea is bad but simply because the community is low.

valid points from my point of you that many will agree.
1) ephinea is not there yet to have the amount of players to initiate this update. currently the amount of players in game is 151. sound the amount of average players some just lobbying and playing in different lvs cutting the chances to play with people with a desire id.

2) as much as we want not all ID matter in fact ephinea made a awesome choice in the past few months making good HBR that the community wanted. pretty much with this update this cuts the possibility of playing with a desire ID. for example some of yall seen rooms open with randoms ID that no one joins that is cutting our resorces of players as well

3) changing ID for 3 months this will be the only alternative you may say since is for every 3 months there is a change to change your character ID. you can make a rotation of each of your characters after u change one 1 for current hbr. you will have to change id for your 2nd character for the upcoming hbr. now you cant change 2 characters that u cant longer change ID. as you go to your 3rd id change for your 3rd character. your first character should be clear. this will force you to play other characters and problems with is is that (NOT ALL PLAYERS HAVE ALT CHARACTERS)

4) (party leader quest has to stay) some quest aint no joke sometimes we players dont mind restarting if someone crashes and we even say if we were to happen to crash "go without me and i'll catch the next run" that being said if the leader crashes is a long run quest it will no longer be useful to the party since the leader crash and the ID changes. some of us play pso for a long hrs and some of us dont we ask favors to open rooms and the ones that sometimes open room say i will "open and go to bed"

5) as mention before some players that are new to the game open room that doesnt really matter in hbr with randoms ID they stay in rooms by themselves. thats not my point tho some players are shy as new players and we have run into players that love solo gameplay that being said also playing with just 1 character. by that being said they only given a 3 months to change ID

6) having already trouble to find people to play with no we will find ourselves looking in the channel #pso "looking for someone for a certain ID for this quest. keeping in mind community is low, you have used your id change you get each 3 months and ect

 

[Jafet777]

hopefully my points aint taking in a bad way its not here to change the mind of the admistration i thank you so much for the game i always been thankful for being part of ephinea and the community, i haven't been active much so sorry for the inactivity also i didnt check for my spelling so my bad. :3

 

[Ryan]

I'm just going to pop in, cite some precedents, and pop back out. I'm less here to argue and more just to say things.

• Untekk rate nerf, as far as principle/vanilla goes, is equivalent to changing Red Ring's level requirement from 108 to 180. It's also a lot less dramatic of a nerf than that one. SID changing with the leader was also a reversion to vanilla behavior, and wasn't ever really intended as any kind of intentional behavior change.
  
• Community unity is often, but not always, taken into account when the staff makes a decision. The "not always" tends to veer toward "probably not" when it comes to nerfing something; Soda billed the untekk nerf a "controversial change" before making it for this exact reason. It might be worth noting that an entire 22% of people who participated in the Episode 2 drop revamp thread disagreed with it!

Big appreciation for the civility in this thread. I might actually come in to debate this tomorrow when I'm not about to fall asleep.

 

[Sodaboy]

I told myself I wouldn't reply to this thread but here will be my first and only reply to it.

Let's get the section ID change argument/discussion out of the way first, as there really isn't a case for the ranting about it.

We'll start by taking a trip through time.

As we all know, with the "vanilla" version of the game, you aren't even allowed to change your section ID. You had to use name calculators and what not to figure out what to name your character to get the section ID you wanted and that was the section ID that character was... for life.

We also know, at least with all versions of PSO before Blue Burst, the section ID that the game used was determined by the current leader of the game. Once that leader left the game or was disconnected, the section ID changed to whomever became the new leader. (The oldest remaining member of the party.)

There were a couple of users who stated the official Blue Burst server changed this behavior so that the section ID of the game never changed from what it was when it was created, but that behavior could not be confirmed as the official Blue Burst servers were no longer live. Nevertheless, Ephinea did change it's behavior to mimic the behavior told to us.

Ephinea also changed the vanilla behavior further by allowing people to change their character's section ID using /modsecid once, and only once, before their character became level 20.

Later on, and this was a very recent change (February 9th of this year, about 3 months ago), Ephinea allowed people to change their section ID once per month. This was deemed too generous as it allowed people to simply /modsecid on demand for whatever the current Hunters Boost Road was or just whenever they felt the need.

As stated in the news post, with the arrival of /modsecid and sticky section IDs, there were a lot of section ID mules/bots created simply to make a game and then leave so that the owner or owner's friends could hunt the items they wanted.

The Ephinea staff decided to get rid of the section ID sticking in game and return it to the only behavior that could still be confirmed in PSO's existence. Section ID of the game changing when the party leader changes.

The Ephinea staff also decided to increase the timeframe between /modsecid to 3 months instead of 1 month so that section ID choices matter.

We're still throwing you a bone here because, as stated, absolute vanilla behavior allows no changes to a character's section ID whatsoever and game section ID changing as party leaders change.

Yes, it sucks for those who have many mule bots, but overall we feel the change is a good one as it also increases the social aspect of the game.

If you need an item that drops from a specific section ID and you do not have a character of that ID, you will be forced to party up with another member of the community to lead you on a hunt. Reversely, you can also help other people on their hunts for items your section IDs can find.

To be honest, some of the staff wanted to eliminate /modsecid and some wanted it changed back to the old behavior of once before a certain level, this time once before level 80 instead of 20, but I opted to adjust it to once every 3 months. (You're welcome.)

It is what it is and is staying that way. It's still an improvement over the vanilla behavior, like it or hate it.

Now onto the untekk rate.

Some players may not be aware, but in one map per episode, Ruins 1 for Episode 1, Seaside / CCA for Episode 2, and Sub Desert 1 for Episode 4 (because we copied the Episode 1 PT for Episode 4), 5 out of the 10 section IDs had an 82% chance to find an untekked weapon. No, not a rare weapon, but a generic ??? with a special and some attributes.

Looking at the ItemPT file which defines these rates, it was an obvious typo by SEGA / Sonic Team. Those 5 IDs has a table cut and pasted to them which had this typo in it. Ephinea corrected this typo to 28%.

Sure, this means that those maps no longer drop an unproportional rate of untekked weapons like vanilla anymore, but it shouldn't necessarily break anyone's enjoyment of the game. In fact, I'd argue the majority of players didn't even notice or feel the change.

The only players who I could see complaining are those who are looking for a specific combination of special, type of weapon, and percents and want to farm those maps repeatedly for it. Players who maybe feel they don't have the time to play the game on other maps to find said item and want to find it faster. Or, maybe, players who want to find decent things to sell to other players to make a quick buck.

Newsflash: PSO is an item hunting game. It wasn't designed to have quick hunts for the best items. You're supposed to put in many hours to find what you're looking for. Even if that item is a generic weapon with your dream attributes.

The change to the untekk rate puts the find rate amongst the same as the other maps and other IDs and makes things more balanced.

Yes, that greedy or impatient player can't find their item as fast as before, but in the long run, it makes good items that have already been found and will be found, actually have more value than before, which is ultimately better overall for the server.

Honestly, though, if you're not playing PSO for the grind or you feel you've played PSO so much that you don't have the time or are jaded about the hunt, you're playing the wrong game and probably should retire.

You can feel free to rant about it, call the Ephinea staff monsters, and say we're distressing you to the point you're not sleeping or eating or whatever, but this change is also staying. It really is not that big of a deal.

 

[Zen]

Untekk rate nerf, as far as principle/vanilla goes, is equivalent to changing Red Ring's level requirement from 108 to 180. It's also a lot less dramatic of a nerf than that one.

Doesn't even compare. Also I believe this RR change is the less dramatic one since it's obvious it's the best barrier in PSO and should have had a much higher level requirement given its strengths. A better comparison would have been a talk about how the market used to be flooded with RR and how little value they had back when their drop rate was 1/64. Yes, lowering the odds in this case was a good fix. But the comparison wouldn't have worked either since Ephinea's economy isn't currently flooded with 100H Charge Vulcans or 100H Caliburs.

The change to the untekk rate puts the find rate amongst the same as the other maps and other IDs and makes things more balanced.

Or you could say that it weakens IDs which previously had this advantage over others. It depends on which side you're looking at it, but it objectively isn't "more balanced". One could argue the contrary.

but in the long run, it makes good items that have already been found and will be found, actually have more value than before,

Even with the 82% untekk rate you could very well never find your dream weapon ever. The odds are so low it's probably why these 75H Caliburs and Vulcans made it in previous events. And I'm more concerned about finding them in events rather than after hundreds of hours of autistic box hunting on specific stronger IDs.

Playing PSO for the grind is one thing, lowering the almost non-existent odds to find your dream weapon is simply a motivation killer for players on here. So sure, people can stop playing or go elsewhere if they're not happy with your updates but are you really wishing for it?

 

[cameron-]

The only players who I could see complaining are those who are looking for a specific combination of special, type of weapon, and percents and want to farm those maps repeatedly for it. Players who maybe feel they don't have the time to play the game on other maps to find said item and want to find it faster. Or, maybe, players who want to find decent things to sell to other players to make a quick buck.

Considering you were more likely to find a heaven punisher or an SJS than a decent cal on pre-nerf skyly CCA (as an example), this feels like a mischaracterization of the facts. There was no quick buck to be had on floor 8 and, in fact, many felt that it was not the best hunt for photon weapons since it only has one of the desired pattern 4 rolls.

You can feel free to rant about it, call the Ephinea staff monsters, and say we're distressing you to the point you're not sleeping or eating or whatever, but this change is also staying.

We are all being really civil and mature in this thread and characterizing us (the player-base opposed to this change) as such is unwarranted.

 

[Ryan]

Doesn't even compare.

I mean... it does? We're switching two numbers around because we believe Sega made a typo. Again, like No Hit said, whether they did or didn't doesn't actually matter - it just seems like they did in both cases, so we corrected it.

Also I believe this RR change is the less dramatic one since it's obvious it's the best barrier in PSO and should have had a much higher level requirement given its strengths.

OK, and I believe it's obvious that floor 8 wasn't supposed to have the rate it did, but we won't get anywhere arguing in circles about it.

 

[Sodaboy]

We are all being really civil and mature in this thread and characterizing us (the player-base opposed to this change) as such is unwarranted.

Bro, the word "distressed" was used in the OP. I wasn't the first one to use it, lol.

caused was a lot of distress among the players who know about it

That is an extremely dramatic thing to say, in my opinion.

Anyhow, as I said, the untek rate change will not be reverted. However, we've come up with a compromise.

We're going to add some buffs to the Anguish mode of the game which is, yes, not vanilla.

Basically, three things will be changed about Anguish:

1. The Drop Anything Rate will increase by 1% for each Anguish level, up to 10% on Anguish 10. I know this isn't much, but...
2. The Untek Rate will increase for EVERY AREA by 10% for each Anguish level, up to a 95% max. Example: Forest 1 on Ultimate, no Anguish, is 22% rate. On Anguish 1, this will be 32% rate. On Anguish 5, this will be 72%. Anguish 10 would cap at 95% for Forest 1.
3. The Percent Pattern for EVERY AREA will increase by 1 for every 3 Anguish levels. Example: Forest 1 on Ultimate uses pattern 2 for the first %. On Anguish 3, it'd use pattern 3. On Anguish 6, it'd use pattern 4. An area would never go past pattern 4.

If this isn't acceptable then, well, sorry, we tried.

 

[Spuz]

My two cents on the ID change: All ID's already mattered in the game thanks to the drop chart balances/changes. These were great and made every ID useful somewhere while every ID was also shit somewhere. This was great and all IDs had a use but now It has declined. I believe ID's are a lot weaker as they are now a hindrance rather than a bonus and there will be much less ID, area & class diversity. This is because everyone is going to resort to using the few best ID's on their few characters and switch around between those few IDs every few months for a small portion of quests where the best hunts are instead of having everything available on any character. If the change to make /modsecid available monthly was causing worry of ID's becoming too strong that itself should have been removed instead of changing how the games work imo. Instead of seeing people make games and switch characters for diversity in play & enjoyment of character choice, they are going to be stuck on that character with that ID and not enjoying the game. Or they would have to play the game on an undesirable ID thus also not having fun. People are just going to start soloing a lot more due to lack of diversity or just outright play less. I also understand the desire to kill off people using ID bots to access all ID's but that's something within the game parameters and this just hinders everyone else for a few people. These players will end up just making parties 3p and looting with their ID bot or soloing in multimode with their bots. Then when people disconnect which in this game happens often and too many people, the whole game is ruined, everyone has to remake, give up, find a new game etc and those who don't care will be left alone which is socially fragmenting. I think this was detrimental to ephinea, not beneficial. I will live with both changes, because I love PSOBB and Ephinea and I am sure many people will, I just feel this has a negative impact rather than a positive one. I guess it's time to raise FOnewm with every ID and HUcast with every ID and RAcast with every ID... 120 characters here I come.

 

[C.Edge]

Bro, the word "distressed" was used in the OP. I wasn't the first one to use it, lol.


That is an extremely dramatic thing to say, in my opinion.

Anyhow, as I said, the untek rate change will not be reverted. However, we've come up with a compromise.

We're going to add some buffs to the Anguish mode of the game which is, yes, not vanilla.

Basically, three things will be changed about Anguish:

1. The Drop Anything Rate will increase by 1% for each Anguish level, up to 10% on Anguish 10. I know this isn't much, but...
2. The Untek Rate will increase for EVERY AREA by 10% for each Anguish level, up to a 95% max. Example: Forest 1 on Ultimate, no Anguish, is 22% rate. On Anguish 1, this will be 32% rate. On Anguish 5, this will be 72%. Anguish 10 would cap at 95% for Forest 1.
3. The Percent Pattern for EVERY AREA will increase by 1 for every 3 Anguish levels. Example: Forest 1 on Ultimate uses pattern 2 for the first %. On Anguish 3, it'd use pattern 3. On Anguish 6, it'd use pattern 4. An area would never go past pattern 4.

If this isn't acceptable then, well, sorry, we tried.

This right here. I am in favor of this change happening. Anguish is so fun but it honestly never felt worth running due to the extra amount of time it takes to down mobs with their HP increase. With this , Anguish would take longer but the quality of drops improve to make up for it. I appreciate that a compromise is at-least being considered and worked on.

 

[Zen]

I mean... it does? We're switching two numbers around because we believe Sega made a typo. Again, like No Hit said, whether they did or didn't doesn't actually matter - it just seems like they did in both cases, so we corrected it.

I get why these numbers were swapped. Now, did fixing level requirement for RR harm the player base in any form? And will a lower untekk rate have an impact on players' hunts?
Swapping numbers isn't the important part, however behind numbers are mechanics affecting people's experience. I thought it was clear.

Nothing relevant is left to do on Ephinea. I see it as trying so hard to keep doing something it ends up being negative. The nitpicking changes are kinda lazy and not thought beyond "this will look better in my excel page". How exactly is fixing the 82% untekk rate more than 3 years later making anything better when such a long time prove it was neither broken nor harmful for the economy?

OK, and I believe it's obvious that floor 8 wasn't supposed to have the rate it did, but we won't get anywhere arguing in circles about it.

Obvious or not, it was changed for no good reason. The argument that items will see their value rise is weak as they were already the rarest ones and most valuables in the whole game. If anything, events killed their value, not the 8th floor's typo.

 

[Dab]

Newsflash: PSO is an item hunting game. It wasn't designed to have quick hunts for the best items. You're supposed to put in many hours to find what you're looking for. Even if that item is a generic weapon with your dream attributes.

People used to do this, until that item will be in an event with more hit than they were looking for in the first place.

Edit: Also, can we stop using "muh vanilla" as an excuse to make changes? We're at least 2 years past that.

 

[Jafet777]

With that last statement wouldn’t that make most of us event players? since the chances of prices will be better that actually hunting the damn thing. I’m trying to follow things here.

 

[SLU]

First, I agree with the latest section ID change. Allowing ID-bots or monthly changes makes section ID choice completely irrelevant, and only a minor inconvenience to get around. Section ID matters now, but there is also still some flexibility if you want to change for a long solo hunt or really good HBR ID. Great compromise.

On the untekk rate, my opinion is that it seems odd to change only one of the quirks/typos/poor design of the game but not change all of them. As stated by other users it is not a fix that is a QOL improvement, or balancing measure, or something of that degree. It is merely the staff deciding to fix one of the "errors" of the game which results in a strict nerf of finding the rarest drops in the game. And as other stated it wasn't really something that needed fixing - it's not like 100H Cals are dropping once a month.

If the goal is to take the base game even further away from the "Vanilla plus QOL improvements" that I thought it was, then why not fix everything? Allow an immediate +10 tekk option. Get rid of some of the inexplicable class-specific equips. Re-balance technique damage. Hell, re-balance class stats while you're at it. Make the game "better" in your opinion by fixing what you view as the "errors" that Sega had in creating the game. My examples are extreme, but I'm trying to make a point that this is the type of change I view this as. IMO the server should be kept closer to Vanilla plus QOL improvements, quirks and all.

 

[Travendus]

My main issue with these changes is why remove them now after everyone has already adapted to them? Untekk rate was in 2016 when John mentioned it so there was plenty of time to remove it before it became staple hunts.

 

[reason]

If you don't like it, just go "elsewhere".

 

[Bonesy]

If you don't like it, just go "elsewhere".

the elsewheres for pso range from dead to derp as hell, yo