CCC adjustment copium thread

Thanatossa

Thanatossa

Member
Hello Ephinea,

now with CCC being added to the list of quests without any drops many players were vocal about it. I'd like to take this opportunity to remind players of other quests with high monster density to help you cope with your loss.
Episode 1:
MAE Episode 1 - TTF for big boys. Marathon of the now gone anniversary event only quests but slightly nerfed in general. Suggested ID: Red or white
Tyrells Ego - forest only or full run. Suggested ID: purple F only, red, white, vir yellow full run
Random Attack Xrd Stage - insane density but random routing. yellow feels best overall
Episode 2:
unfortunately i barely play episode 2. Probably MAE: VR Pink for a decent temple section without labyrinth rooms.
Episode 4:
MAE4 - one of the evergreen quests. Green or Yellow, no contest in that regard
LBB - either Yellow, Blue or red with backup in case of eclair. Viridia alone sucko

Feel free to suggest other quests. Resets after clearing an area are fine.
 
Nothing really compares to the efficiency of CCC temple resets for target hunting both rare rappies and rare lilies, but MA2v2 remains as a good rare lily hunt even though it is kind of a boring reset. Lost SHOCK RIFLE is the new best quest for target hunting both but it's a long quest that can be difficult to fill mp rooms for. It was in the last RBR selection last rare enemy week under ideal conditions and I struggled filling rooms for it. Considering leveling a pinkal ranger to just solo it next time it comes around.
 
These are all horrible "alternatives" but I respect the haters ball that CCC has silently amassed over the years. (OP)

Well, full Ego might be comparable in terms of numbers but probably not time. Same for Xrd too? Not sure.

Shock Rifle has always been my go to for Rappies+Lilies (MA2 if lilies only) but as mentioned, not very popular :(
 
CTB said:
These are all horrible "alternatives" but I respect the haters ball that CCC has silently amassed over the years. (OP)

Well, full Ego might be comparable in terms of numbers but probably not time. Same for Xrd too? Not sure.

Shock Rifle has always been my go to for Rappies+Lilies (MA2 if lilies only) but as mentioned, not very popular :(
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They're not horrible alternatives, it's just that CCC was so insanely good that anything other than CCC makes it look way worse than it actually is.
Also, popularity doesn't mean it's not good. There are plenty of quests that aren't popular but are actually very good quests to run for specific drops.

I've also seen a lot of sentiment around CCC being nerfed specifically for cookie farming for Halloween. I cant stress enough how bad of a take that is. There is zero chance that they would nerf a quest centered around one specific 2 week mini-event, that's preposterous. CCC was obviously insanely good for what farms were capable in it, so good in fact that it gets spammed constantly for the ID's its good in for their respective weeks, which completely blows everything else out of the water.

Dispelling the rumor now that CCC was nerfed because of cookie farming. That is an extremely disingenuous take people are seriously trying to push in regards to this quest. Its silly.
 
Nikki_the_FOmarl said:
Nothing really compares to the efficiency of CCC temple resets for target hunting both rare rappies and rare lilies, but MA2v2 remains as a good rare lily hunt even though it is kind of a boring reset. Lost SHOCK RIFLE is the new best quest for target hunting both but it's a long quest that can be difficult to fill mp rooms for. It was in the last RBR selection last rare enemy week under ideal conditions and I struggled filling rooms for it. Considering leveling a pinkal ranger to just solo it next time it comes around.
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I'm working on a quest and hoping I can plead my case that the bad (mediocre at best) drop tables for temple justify increasing the density of enemies. Especially considering the value of ep4, and something like NMU3 having over 300 enemies with lots of value across a bunch of ids compared to sweep up 5 only having a little under 200 enemies with comparatively awful drops and taking similar time to clear. I genuinely feel like temple has just been neglected and undertuned, but do agree that CCC was overtuned as well
 
What does that have to do with anything? Vivienne doesn't exist in classic and in pre-eph BB charts it dropped from Pazuzu. I understand vanilla e4 was heavily overtuned and agree with ephs changes to distribute e4 hunts into e1 & e2 for better game balance but retract is right.
 
Nikki_the_FOmarl said:
What does that have to do with anything? Vivienne doesn't exist in classic and in pre-eph BB charts it dropped from Pazuzu. I understand vanilla e4 was heavily overtuned and agree with ephs changes to distribute e4 hunts into e1 & e2 for better game balance but retract is right.
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I think he's just shilling for it lol.
Cant wait to see what retract does with his temple quests.
 
Varista said:
They're not horrible alternatives, it's just that CCC was so insanely good that anything other than CCC makes it look way worse than it actually is.
Also, popularity doesn't mean it's not good. There are plenty of quests that aren't popular but are actually very good quests to run for specific drops.

I've also seen a lot of sentiment around CCC being nerfed specifically for cookie farming for Halloween. I cant stress enough how bad of a take that is. There is zero chance that they would nerf a quest centered around one specific 2 week mini-event, that's preposterous. CCC was obviously insanely good for what farms were capable in it, so good in fact that it gets spammed constantly for the ID's its good in for their respective weeks, which completely blows everything else out of the water.

Dispelling the rumor now that CCC was nerfed because of cookie farming. That is an extremely disingenuous take people are seriously trying to push in regards to this quest. Its silly.
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They are in fact horrible alternatives. OP tried to help doomers by providing what they believe are solid alternatives. Nobody came into the topic asking about how balanced the quests are, or how "good" the quests are. Horrible alternatives in this context means they do not satisfy someone looking for a CCC substitute.

I don't particularly care about this change if I'm being honest (since I only use it for ranger levels pre-ultimate anyway) - it just seems disingenuous that people say there are alternatives. Well that and it took like 8 years lol

Due to a large number of enemies being weak to hell or otherwise easily combo killable in one small room, no other quest comes close to the efficiency when it comes to farming kills (edit: ...with drops.) There are 108 enemies in the Temple room alone, and 142 in Spaceship. While there are even more after this, most people get filtered or just don't find it as quick/efficient.

I did point out Tyrell's Ego as an exception and would probably amend that to say you can just run Forest resets. At 201 enemies this is comparable if you split as the runs pile up. CCC should still win due to map travelling but the doomers have a place. So...one is a decent, maybe good alternative. :^)

And I 100% believe this quest was nerfed due to cookie (and possibly badge/christmas) abuse. I think anyone implying otherwise is just shit posting or playing too much theory. CCC doesn't have any insanely good hunts - and it isn't included in RBR. Just look at the stand outs for time/effort spent:

Lilies/Rappies - most noteworthy due to being only short quest with both. Lost Shock Rifle works as a replacement hunt but it is slower; there are better options for hunting the enemies separately (MA2/Shock Rifle resets)
Bears - MA2 reset is better.
Belra - this is actually a pretty good case where nothing can really come close. but...nobody really looks for hit milla or yasha from belra.
Whitill kinda has a DoB hunt in Temple portion but PW1 exists. Still, DoB hunt + Rambling May was strong...
Delsaber - Strong, but falls behind LBA during RBR. Falls behind in a vacuum when considering GDV. Generally people are looking for Baranz combo hunts outside of Greenil however, which is also working against CCC.
PArms - actually not sure. 6-3 should be better? But GDV again when considering all drops.
Sorc - not exactly sought after for the most part but falls behind PSurge 2

CCA, Seabed, and Tower are generally too difficult for the average player to reach and clear but also take a considerable amount of time to reach in comparison to Temple and maybe Spaceship. Considerable as in every enemy has a better, quicker hunt option available. Outside of Epsilon the enemy counts after Spaceship are actually fairly low. Probably to compensate for TTK on the variety of minibosses and Epsilon?

(with all that being said, Pinkal and Whitill had very strong combined drops for CCC compared to other IDs, though I wouldn't call them insane)
It is fine to say they were insane once you factored in event drops, though.

There were a few people who thought CCC should have drops disabled but the vast majority of people did not seem to care until it got removed lol. Besides the event abuse, I think the only other reason CCC had drops disabled was that Ultima already had the drops for it disabled...so it is easy to argue it should have never had drops to begin with.

Anyway, doopliss is probably shit posting as usual but Classic Temple is essentially worthless. You have Yellow 3084 and Whitill DoBs (which are invalid because PW1), nothing else. Ephinea Temple is hard to call neglected considering it now has the additional Rambling May, Vivienne, FS, Irista, Thirteen, Surpressed Heart, Morolian, etc...
 
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CTB said:
1. They are in fact horrible alternatives. OP tried to help doomers by providing what they believe are solid alternatives. Nobody came into the topic asking about how balanced the quests are, or how "good" the quests are. Horrible alternatives in this context means they do not satisfy someone looking for a CCC substitute.

2. I don't particularly care about this change if I'm being honest (since I only use it for ranger levels pre-ultimate anyway) - it just seems disingenuous that people say there are alternatives. Well that and it took like 8 years lol

Due to a large number of enemies being weak to hell or otherwise easily combo killable in one small room, no other quest comes close to the efficiency when it comes to farming kills. There are 108 enemies in the Temple room alone, and 142 in Spaceship. While there are even more after this, most people get filtered or just don't find it as quick/efficient.

I did point out Tyrell's Ego as an exception and would probably amend that to say you can just run Forest resets. At 201 enemies this is comparable if you split as the runs pile up. CCC should still win due to map travelling but the doomers have a place. So...one is a decent, maybe good alternative. :^)

3. And I 100% believe this quest was nerfed due to cookie (and possibly badge/christmas) abuse. I think anyone implying otherwise is just shit posting or playing too much theory. CCC doesn't have any insanely good hunts - and it isn't included in RBR. Just look at the stand outs for time/effort spent:

Lilies/Rappies - most noteworthy due to being only short quest with both. Lost Shock Rifle works as a replacement hunt but it is slower; there are better options for hunting the enemies separately (MA2/Shock Rifle resets)
Bears - MA2 reset is better.
Belra - this is actually a pretty good case where nothing can really come close. but...nobody really looks for hit milla or yasha from belra.
Whitill kinda has a DoB hunt in Temple portion but PW1 exists. Still, DoB hunt + Rambling May was strong...
Delsaber - Strong, but falls behind LBA during RBR. Falls behind in a vacuum when considering GDV. Generally people are looking for Baranz combo hunts outside of Greenil however, which is also working against CCC.
PArms - actually not sure. 6-3 should be better? But GDV again when considering all drops.
Sorc - not exactly sought after for the most part but falls behind PSurge 2

4. CCA, Seabed, and Tower are generally too difficult for the average player to reach and clear but also take a considerable amount of time to reach in comparison to Temple and maybe Spaceship. Considerable as in every enemy has a better, quicker hunt option available.

(with all that being said, Pinkal and Whitill had very strong combined drops for CCC compared to other IDs, though I wouldn't call them insane)

5. There were a few people who thought CCC should have drops disabled but the vast majority of people did not seem to care until it got removed lol. Besides the event abuse, I think the only other reason CCC had drops disabled was that Ultima already had the drops for it disabled...so it is easy to argue it should have never had drops to begin with.

Anyway, doopliss is probably shit posting as usual but Classic Temple is essentially worthless. You have Yellow 3084 and Whitill DoBs (which are invalid because PW1), nothing else. Ephinea Temple is hard to call neglected considering it now has the additional Rambling May, Vivienne, FS, Irista, Thirteen, Surpressed Heart, Morolian, etc...
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1. They're not horrible alternatives at all, you can't judge one quest's "goodness" based on another's, especially when the quest in question is insane and deserved to be nerfed or disabled, it's not going to be possible for some one to find an acceptable CCC alternative because CCC is the equivalent to getting 10x drop rates essentially.

2. It's not disingenuous at all to say that there are alternatives because there are, quite literally, alternatives to the hunt. CCC is not the only Temple/Spaceship quest on the server if you don't like the alternatives that's fine but you can't just say that because they don't fit your definition of "good" that they aren't alternatives. The alternative in this instance will ALWAYS be worse since CCC was so insanely powerful and efficient.

3. As I said before, it's kind of delusional/copium to believe the staff would ever change something based solely on a once (or maybe twice) a year event currency farm when there's significantly more to it than that. You can say people don't really care about CCC that much but the Vivienne prices speak for themselves. People care about good Vivienne and Rambling May farms, that much is clear. Even if CCC didn't have good farms it would still be broken strictly due to the way the quest is designed. If I made a quest that had you stand still and kill 10 Hildebear over and over again for 2 minutes and then reset you back to lobby that would be broken, even if the hunts for it are limited. The hunt viability and the overpowered nature of it are two different and separate things, it's not fair to other Temple quests in the end to have to compare to CCC later on, you're creating an extremely toxic environment for Temple quest development.

If retract still wanted to make his quests when CCC was un-nerfed, it would be insanely unfun to do so and they'd likely never see play. Retract is making Temple quests BECAUSE CCC was nerfed, but that doesn't change that CCC still affects the global outcome and performance of future quests by making them obsolete. In quest development, one of the facets we are faced with is making something that's good but not so good that it invalidates all other work, so if we have to abide by that then why shouldn't everything else also abide by that same logic?

4. I don't agree that these areas are too difficult for the average player. I think if anything that this section of what you said is actually disingenuous; you're essentially just making excuses for make-believe issues for make-believe people.

5. Obviously the vast majority of people didn't want CCC nerfed. That doesn't take away from the importance of it being disabled though. People will always want something broken to benefit from for a game like PSO; you'd be hard pressed to find some one that genuinely wants to spend more time grinding and slaving away at pitiful drop rates on a 20+ year old game. I don't blame people for liking CCC and wanting it around, but I don't think that's an argument you want to make; especially considering that there's countless examples of things being better overall for the game's balance that the community vehemently opposes (such as Mericarol stat rebalancing) which the staff have brought to the community's attention and the community have rejected. Again, this goes back to the original point that CCC is broken in both a vacuum and within the natural sample pool. It's not good quest design to allow quests that require next to nothing of the player but simultaneously benefitting them immensely.
 
if you don't understand the literal definition of alternative (or just want to redefine it because no other quest meets the criteria) then i don't give a shit
 
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